U.S. Military Deserters in Canada Megathread

[Delicron]

I didn't assume that anybody thought the same as me I assumed that people that were aware of the current global state knew that the Iraq war is plagued by controversy surrounding some questionable incidents and practices.

Granted, there is controversy.  But what I said is evident in your last post: you believe (given the evidence) that there can be only one conclusion to be made about the situation.  Whatever that conclusion is (I don't care really), is likely to be incomplete, based on hearsay, and has likely not gone through the rigors of any actual informed debate.  A difference of opinion is understandable when given the same evidence, several conclusions can reasonably be made.  That is the case here. However, you only seem able to recognize the validity of one opinion; those of the "globally informed" who happen to agree with you.

 

[Bigrex]

Now, a political pop quiz for you:

1. Did you know that President Bush is currently pushing a bill through congress that will pardon him from being charged with any war crimes associated to the war in Iraq?

2. Did you know that the reason for going into Iraq was the reason for a WMD search, or a perception that the Iraq's had such weapons?

3. Did you know that now, Dick Cheney as well as the rest of the Bush Administration deny that they ever said that there was an imminent threat of WMD's in Iraq, even though the media has video of them clearly stating that there is an imminent threat of WMD's in Iraq?

4. Did you also know that "A new Newsweek poll out this weekend exposed "gaps" in America's knowledge of history and current events. Perhaps most alarmingly, 41% of Americans answered 'Yes' to the question "Do you think Saddam Hussein’s regime in Iraq was directly involved in planning, financing, or carrying out the terrorist attacks of September 11th, 2001?" That total is actually up 5 points since September 2004. Further, a majority of people couldn't identify Saudia Arabia as the country of origin of most of the 9/11 hijackers, even given the question in multiple choice format. 20% answered Iraq, while 14% believed the hijackers came from Iran."? quote courtesy of http://atlanticreview.org/archives/726-More-Americans-Believe-that-Saddam-Was-Directly-Involved-in-911.html.

5. Does the above quote not smell of propaganda, or is it the ignorance of their own people at their own demise?

Perhaps it is questions we need to ask such as what are the man's motives for leaving the US?

1. In every conflict, one persons war hero is another persons war criminal, legislation in place or not.

2. Iraq has had WMDs and have used them, so it wasn't such as stretch, and if Bush Sr had gone into Iraq in the first place, people would haven't blinked an eye. And it isn't a stretch to say that Saddam was above using terrorist like AQ to strike a blow against his enemies.

3. As far as not finding WMDs, what do people expect when the inspection teams give the guy notice. It would be similar to police calling a drug house and saying they want to come in and search, and then wait several days or weeks for them to receive permission, then claim they are surprised no drugs were found. In the 90's, Iraq sent the majority of their jets to Iran to avoid destruction, so why not other weapons

4. the American people have never been extremely wise when it comes to current affairs outside their borders. A few years back, Royal Canadian Air Farce went around asking Americans to say something about Canada getting their first paved road, and they went on congratulating us on entering modern times, including a professor from a prominent university, so their lack of knowledge about the other side of the world isn't surprising.

 

[Danjanou]

....I thought that everyone agreed that perhaps what is happening in Iraq is less than honourable, if that's not the case - that some people disagree with that - then I'm sorry. Surprised, but sorry. 

 

Well I guess you thought wrong there skippy. take off the rose coloured glasses and join the real world, it's scary sure but it can be fun.

I just thought every globally aware citizen took some of this as a given

And let me guess your definition of "globally aware" is limited those who think like you and parrot the same phrases right. Us poor knuckle dragging warmongers don't qaulify.

As has been said before fill in the profile tell us who we're dealing with here. If not military, maybe well travelled, former tour with CUSO, Peace Corps, Medicien sans Frontiers or do you sit in mommy's basement surfing progressive blogs and trollign while figuring out another way to stay in grad school for the 10th consecutive yeat to avoid real responsibility.

 

[Harris]

I remember seeing a quote years back, cant seem to recall it all together, but I think it was from Napoleon and was something like "The best kind of soldier would walk into a lake and drown if ordered to do so." Now this is a bit of an extream example, but I believe a soldier should do whatever he is ordered to do so by a superior.

Personally, I have no desire to have soldiers like those in your example.  I prefer to have soldiers who obey lawful commands, but who also display initative, and exercise Mission Command.  I'm not a fan of the "Do what I say because I'm an Officer and you have to", style of leadership.

 

[char9409]

Thank you for coming back - I was afraid you might not.

I think you've provided some very provocative statistics there - do you have sources for them?

I find myself in the awkward position of defending your right to speak your piece, and at the same time disagreeing with you.

Let's make a deal - as a moderator here, I'll do my best to keep away the "dogpile" which MAY happen.  In return - please provide sources for your assertions of fact.

I MIGHT become involved in the forthcoming debate - when I'm Moderating, my comment will be signed with a red "Milnet.ca Staff" annotation - anything not so annotated is my personal opinion.

I respect your point of view - regardless I disagree with it - and I welcome your contribution to these forums.


Roy Harding
Milnet.ca Staff

Yes here are some of my resources for the previous statements

1. http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=3416. You can read the report, plus you can google Bush pardon's himself as well and get pages and pages of information.

2. & 3. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e17_1194117001 for actual video of donald rumsfeld stating that there were in fact WMD's and several other video's including Bush. Again you can google bush lies about WMD's or 'mislead' the American People.

4.  I left the source in my statement.

5. Was just a general question.

I really appreciate it that more than 1 view is allowed to be heard on this forum. I believe that it is incredibly important to look at both sides of an argument. Personally, if I make a committment I would seek out to fullfill this committment to my full ability, which I know I am capable of entirely.

It is true that soldiers do not get to choose their wars, but only fight the wars that politicians have decided, who are generally elected by the people of that country. Serving your country should always and is always an honorable thing, it is when those politicians who use the military to fulfill their own agendas and not those of the American people that a division in ideals is prevelant.

Just because we are a western civilization does not mean that we are prone to propaganda and weaknesses that have occured in our history as a human race. We learn history to avoid repeating it, but when we denounce historic events as irrelevant due to their outrageous and inhumane outcomes is a dangerous analysis. We have all learned that history does in fact repeat itself. I believe we should use this pattern to the best of our abilities. We use patterns in math, science, and all other areas of life, why not in war and politics?

-Charlotte

 

[George Wallace]

Yes here are some of my resources for the previous statements

1. http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=3416. You can read the report, plus you can google Bush pardon's himself as well and get pages and pages of information.

Ah!  I see you didn't dig too deep into the reliability and credibility of your sources.

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=section&sectionName=about

About Global Research

The Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG) is an independent research and media group of writers, scholars, journalists and activists. The CRG is based in Montreal. It is a registered non profit organization in the province of Quebec, Canada.

I do believe we have dealt with people from this organization before.  The letters to Soldiers from BFC Valcartier come to mind.


I think their rating in the Reliability and Credibility "world" is something like a  J 9 .  In other words, they really don't have any.

 

[retiredgrunt45]

As has been said before fill in the profile tell us who we're dealing with here. If not military, maybe well travelled, former tour with CUSO, Peace Corps, Medicien sans Frontiers or do you sit in mommy's basement surfing progressive blogs and trollign while figuring out another way to stay in grad school for the 10th consecutive yeat to avoid real responsibility.

+2 Danjanou

I'm very familiar with the type, my youngest daughter was dating one. He didn't like when I told him to get a haircut and get a real job. But my plan worked, he never came back to our house.

Willsfarm, why don't you go and speak with Jack layton, some thing tells me that you two would get along very well indeed. Afterall you both seem to be suffering from the very same ailment, "foot-in-the-mouth syndrome".

Many of us here have served for years and we know all to well what it means to committing one self to serving our country. Many of us have been in those deep dark places and seen first hand the atrocities of war, but that didn't mean we runaway because we didn't agree with what was going on. From what i've read so far in your postings, you seem to be the odd ball out at a poker game, a lot of lip service, but you know absolutely nothing about the game. Unless you've been there and done it, (not just read it or heard it from the MSM or seen it on the WWW)your not qualified in any way to make presumptions. Until I see something in your profile to change my mind, i'll add you to my growing list of misguided, uninformed individuals.

 

[char9409]

Ah!  I see you didn't dig too deep into the reliability and credibility of your sources.

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=section&sectionName=about

I do believe we have dealt with people from this organization before.  The letters to Soldiers from BFC Valcartier come to mind.


I think their rating in the Reliability and Credibility "world" is something like a   J 9 .  In other words, they really don't have any.

I did also mention to google it. There are thousands of resources. Perhaps you could have read the rest of the sentence that stated the googling capabilities. And what are the sources of credibility for your comment?

 

[Edward Campbell]

I fail to see why so many people get sooooo upset over the few deserters who flee to Canada in the (misguided) belief that this is some sort of pacifist paradise.

It appears to me, based on the cases already heard and the polls I have noticed, that our courts and Canadians agree that deserters from an all volunteer US military have no legitimate claims to refugee status. Some Canadians and some Americans disagree.

We have had deserters of our own – from wars and from peacekeeping and from simple garrison duty and training. We probably have one or two on the books today. The Australians have deserters, ditto the Belgians, Chileans, Danes and so on. Why are a few confused Americans of such overwhelming interest?

A whole lot of Canadians and about half of Americans, too, (if I remember the most recent poll data) oppose the war in Iraq – some on moral ground, some on practical grounds (it’s the wrong way to prosecute the current “clash of civilizations”) and some because they just vehemently oppose George W. Bush and all his works. Some of those who oppose the war have legitimate, defensible points of view, some are just juvenile, ill-educated, knee-jerk anti-Americans (including some Americans, as counterintuitive as that may appear at first glance).

The great thing about Canada (and the USA) is that you can come here, make your case to stay – however silly it may be – get turned down (over and over and over again, unfortunately) and, civilly, be returned to your place of origin for fair treatment.

It’s no big deal, boys and girls. The guy is looking for an easy way to avoid something he finds unpalatable; he’ll almost certainly be disappointed when Canadian officialdom deals with him. Too bad for him; no issue for most anyone else.


Edit: punctuationand a typo

 

[willsfarm]

What am I uninformed about? Your posts are all amusing but I'm still unclear what you guys think I'm so plain wrong about.  I don't support this guy's decision. I just made a couple of statements about the situation in Iraq.  How exceptional....

Talk about knee-jerk reactions! 

No I'm not in my tenth year of grad school, i'm in my second and last year of engineering and I work in residential construction. 

I haven't made personal assumptions about any of you, I won't be insulted by your assumptions about me, they're way off anyways, so knock it off.

 

[aesop081]

I just made a couple of statements about the situation in Iraq.  How exceptional....

And you made statements, implying that they are fact, without backing them up with any credible evidence. I have asked you to do so and, after several posts, you still have not done so.

 

[KevinB]

Regardless of my knowledge of U.S. military personnel, I thought that everyone agreed that perhaps what is happening in Iraq is less than honourable, if that's not the case - that some people disagree with that - then I'm sorry. Surprised, but sorry.  I don't think knowing U.S. servicemen intimately is necessary to be aware of some of what's happening there.

I'll concede to the fact that this isn't the point of the original post anyways.  If a similar discussion is taking place in another ... place .. then I'll take it there.

I'm more than happy to explain, I just thought every globally aware citizen took some of this as a given.  Thanks for the advice, but give me a chance, I'll do fine.

I serve in Iraq -- and having served with the CF in Afghanistan - do not feel it any less of an honorable mission.

  I would not piss on someone who shirks their duty (especially an Officer) if they where on fire. 

 

[Kat Stevens]

The difficulty here, willsfarm, is that you're confusing two issues.  Whether or not the mission in Iraq has questionable motives and consequences is neither here nor there.  The only issue is that this guy refused to perform a duty that he volunteered to complete, and was lawfully required to complete.  He chose to disavow his sworn duty, and ran, rather than face the consequences of his moral, ethical, religious, or just outright selfish beliefs, full stop.

 

[Roy Harding]

The difficulty here, willsfarm, is that you're confusing two issues.  Whether or not the mission in Iraq has questionable motives and consequences is neither here nor there.  The only issue is that this guy refused to perform a duty that he volunteered to complete, and was lawfully required to complete.  He chose to disavow his sworn duty, and ran, rather than face the consequences of his moral, ethical, religious, or just outright selfish beliefs, full stop.

Thank you.  You articulated what I was thinking - and brought this thread back on track.

 

[willsfarm]

I realize those are two different issues and I'm only debating the other issue, since I've been asked to provide proof for my statements, which I am doing.  We all (including me) agree that this U.S. Serviceman has violated his contract and illegally fled the country for which he should be returned to the United States and held responsible for his desertion.

There's no "difficulty", I'm not "confused"; it's very simple.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Mods please spin this off then, as there are now two separate and distinct topics at issue here.

 

[George Wallace]

There's no "difficulty", I'm not "confused"; it's very simple.

Very good then!

So now, don't confuse the issues.  This topic is about a US Navy Chief Petty Officer who served on an Aircraft Carrier......OFF the coast of Iraq.  This topic has nothing to do with United States Foreign Policy.  It is about a DESERTER who is seeking refuge in Canada, a nation that is allied with the US in the WOT.  His coming to Canada avoid Service is what is at issue.

 

[willsfarm]

Well if that's the case then there really is no more issue since we're all in agreement.

I hope I still have the opportunity to provide what's been fairly asked of me though by CDN Aviator.

 

[George Wallace]

Then start a topic on that issue.

 

[willsfarm]

I don't know how to do that.

Mods please spin this off then, as there are now two separate and distinct topics at issue here.