U.S. Military Deserters in Canada Megathread
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George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Right on Bob!
It really is a shame that Bob Rae will in all likelihood continue along the political trail he has set out on and become a sitting member of Parliament. You all realize what kind of member that is. :
It really is a shame that Bob Rae will in all likelihood continue along the political trail he has set out on and become a sitting member of Parliament. You all realize what kind of member that is. :
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George Wallace said:Right on Bob!
It really is a shame that Bob Rae will in all likelihood continue along the political trail he has set out on and become a sitting member of Parliament. You all realize what kind of member that is. :
Hehehehe ... now that's an icon that Mike should be adding onto the site with the rest of them.
It'd go good with a thread "LOCK!!" too... >
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Well, some of us are feeling a bit.....
.... with what is going on in our legal and political systems lately.
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George Wallace said:Well, some of us are feeling a bit......... with what is going on in our legal and political systems lately.
The elections will soon be over & someone will be put out of their misery; time will tell.
I can't imagine being a US citizen and suffering through months & months of "Campaign" talk. Wow. I'm ready to vote tomorrow already.
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I want to be the member that gets the assignment of deporting the deserters back to the US. Really, I would! I wouldn't be mean about it or anything. I think I'd just whip out the Honour Roll of the deserter's unit. Maybe they'll know a few of them, and maybe they'll remember them if I read them out loud, with a "May he/she rest in peace" after thei names.
I have ZERO sympathy for deserters. 0.
I have ZERO sympathy for deserters. 0.
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Well, not to start a bit of a firestorm 
but I am going to have to agree with the Lib's a bit on this.
Now, hold on a second, just let me explain. I think some people are skimming over our friend Bob's support (on behalf of theNDP Liberals) for "conscientious objectors" being allowed to stay in Canada.
I'm all for conscientious objectors being allowed to stay in Canada. These are the kind of people that have conviction in their beliefs and are willing to stand for what they believe in......
However, NONE, I say again, NONE of these cowards have been able to prove conscientious objector status. Hell, some of them didn't even bother trying that route because they knew it would fail. Hinzman is one of them. He doesn't have a problem with war, just the current one in Iraq.
That is not a conscientious objector. That, is a coward.
Wook
but I am going to have to agree with the Lib's a bit on this.Now, hold on a second, just let me explain. I think some people are skimming over our friend Bob's support (on behalf of the
I'm all for conscientious objectors being allowed to stay in Canada. These are the kind of people that have conviction in their beliefs and are willing to stand for what they believe in......
However, NONE, I say again, NONE of these cowards have been able to prove conscientious objector status. Hell, some of them didn't even bother trying that route because they knew it would fail. Hinzman is one of them. He doesn't have a problem with war, just the current one in Iraq.
That is not a conscientious objector. That, is a coward.
Wook
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Just one point on that. Conscientious Objectors don't usually join the Military in the first place. One doesn't join the Military, and then suddenly discover that they are a "Conscientious Objector".
There are other ways for Conscientious Objectors to serve their nations, other than military. They can work for Police Forces, any of the Emergency Services, Hospitals, etc. They don't join the Military.
So Bob can talk about "Conscientious Objectors" being allowed to stay in Canada, but they are a completely different animal from the "Deserter" who willingly joined the Military for a wage and education/Trade signing a contract to do "Service in the Defence of their Nations Policies, at home and abroad".
If Bob condones the breaking of binding contracts, then what else does he condone?
There are other ways for Conscientious Objectors to serve their nations, other than military. They can work for Police Forces, any of the Emergency Services, Hospitals, etc. They don't join the Military.
So Bob can talk about "Conscientious Objectors" being allowed to stay in Canada, but they are a completely different animal from the "Deserter" who willingly joined the Military for a wage and education/Trade signing a contract to do "Service in the Defence of their Nations Policies, at home and abroad".
If Bob condones the breaking of binding contracts, then what else does he condone?
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George,
I agree with you, however, the US Army (at least, not sure about the other services) does have a conscientious objector status (or did, I should say circa 1997). In order to qualify for such, a serving member applies through their CoC and they basically go through a question and answer process to see if they make the grade. Cousin of mine helped one of his buds sort himself out a short time after completing Boot back then. I figured the Chain would be all over this young guy, but supposedly it wasn't that bad.
I'd be interested in finding out how many have successfully done so since 2001? Going to have to make some phone calls and see how much the policy has changed ..... I'll update if I find out anything interesting.
Here, found some interesting stuff. Firstly, from the U.N. (yes I know, but come on)
United Nations Commission on Human Rights resolution 1998/77” officially recognized that “persons [already] performing military service may develop conscientious objections.” Now, whether the US or anyone else pays any attention to that is another story of course.
US legal framework (some from Wiki, some from Library of Congress):
The U.S. Selective Service System states, "Beliefs which qualify a registrant for conscientious objector status may be religious in nature, but don't have to be. Beliefs may be moral or ethical; however, a man's reasons for not wanting to participate in a war must not be based on politics, expediency, or self-interest. In general, the man's lifestyle prior to making his claim must reflect his current claims." Those who apply after either having registered without filing, and/or having attempted or effected a deferral, are specifically required to demonstrate a discrete and documented change in belief, including a precipitant, that converted a non-CO to a CO.
In the United States, there are two main criteria for classification as a conscientious objector. First, the objector must be opposed to war in any form. Second, the objection must be sincere. That he must show that this opposition is based upon religious training and belief was no longer a criterion after cases broadened it to include non-religious moral belief, most notably United States v. Seeger, 380 U.S. 163 (That is an interesting read what I could egt ahold of). COs willing to perform non-combatant military functions are classed 1-A-O by the U.S.; those unwilling to serve at all are 1-O.
And, here is an example of a concientious objector that someone can show to these clowns on how it's done.
http://news.adventist.org/data/2006/1143202005/index.html.en
United States: Adventist Doss, First Conscientious Objector to Win Medal of Honor, Dies at Age 87
Desmond T. Doss, Sr., who braved ridicule to serve in World War II as a U.S. Army medic without carrying a gun, and who labored on a Sabbath, May 5, 1945, to rescue 75 wounded soldiers pinned down by enemy gunfire on the island of Okinawa, died March 23 at his residence in Piedmont, Alabama. Doss, the only conscientious objector to receive the Congressional Medal of Honor during World War II, was 87 years of age.
Wook
I agree with you, however, the US Army (at least, not sure about the other services) does have a conscientious objector status (or did, I should say circa 1997). In order to qualify for such, a serving member applies through their CoC and they basically go through a question and answer process to see if they make the grade. Cousin of mine helped one of his buds sort himself out a short time after completing Boot back then. I figured the Chain would be all over this young guy, but supposedly it wasn't that bad.
I'd be interested in finding out how many have successfully done so since 2001? Going to have to make some phone calls and see how much the policy has changed ..... I'll update if I find out anything interesting.
Here, found some interesting stuff. Firstly, from the U.N. (yes I know, but come on)
United Nations Commission on Human Rights resolution 1998/77” officially recognized that “persons [already] performing military service may develop conscientious objections.” Now, whether the US or anyone else pays any attention to that is another story of course.
US legal framework (some from Wiki, some from Library of Congress):
The U.S. Selective Service System states, "Beliefs which qualify a registrant for conscientious objector status may be religious in nature, but don't have to be. Beliefs may be moral or ethical; however, a man's reasons for not wanting to participate in a war must not be based on politics, expediency, or self-interest. In general, the man's lifestyle prior to making his claim must reflect his current claims." Those who apply after either having registered without filing, and/or having attempted or effected a deferral, are specifically required to demonstrate a discrete and documented change in belief, including a precipitant, that converted a non-CO to a CO.
In the United States, there are two main criteria for classification as a conscientious objector. First, the objector must be opposed to war in any form. Second, the objection must be sincere. That he must show that this opposition is based upon religious training and belief was no longer a criterion after cases broadened it to include non-religious moral belief, most notably United States v. Seeger, 380 U.S. 163 (That is an interesting read what I could egt ahold of). COs willing to perform non-combatant military functions are classed 1-A-O by the U.S.; those unwilling to serve at all are 1-O.
And, here is an example of a concientious objector that someone can show to these clowns on how it's done.
http://news.adventist.org/data/2006/1143202005/index.html.en
United States: Adventist Doss, First Conscientious Objector to Win Medal of Honor, Dies at Age 87
Desmond T. Doss, Sr., who braved ridicule to serve in World War II as a U.S. Army medic without carrying a gun, and who labored on a Sabbath, May 5, 1945, to rescue 75 wounded soldiers pinned down by enemy gunfire on the island of Okinawa, died March 23 at his residence in Piedmont, Alabama. Doss, the only conscientious objector to receive the Congressional Medal of Honor during World War II, was 87 years of age.
Wook
Most of these war resister could have fought this within the USA Armed Forces service and still serve there country.
The recent one was on a aircraft carrier and had no contact ;What so ever? He had 17yrs. in the Navy.
This is more over facing there duty to honour there contract;that they sign of there own free will. :crybaby:
By criminal law ;"Canada should be honouring sign agreement to turn over the criminal's to USA authority's".
To face there charges in there own country.
How can we expect the USA to honour agreement between our two country's;"If we harbour deserters in our country.
As far as our gutless pot smoking opposition party 's should grown up and think of our troops that are defending our country believes.
The recent one was on a aircraft carrier and had no contact ;What so ever? He had 17yrs. in the Navy.
This is more over facing there duty to honour there contract;that they sign of there own free will. :crybaby:
By criminal law ;"Canada should be honouring sign agreement to turn over the criminal's to USA authority's".
To face there charges in there own country.
How can we expect the USA to honour agreement between our two country's;"If we harbour deserters in our country.
As far as our gutless pot smoking opposition party 's should grown up and think of our troops that are defending our country believes.
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Desertfox... some of the navy squids have what we call "purple trades". Occupations that are common to all branches of the service. So, there is a chance that the 17 yr navy guy was heading into Iraq - not an aircraft carrier in the Indian Ocean.
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I disagree that CO status pers should stay here. After all, if they go through the process (as outlined by Strike), then they get to stay in the USA. As for this asshat, he deserted in a time of war. I wonder what Bob Rae would say about me if I chose to NOT come to Afghanistan, claiming it was all a Harper-Bush conspiracy to get oil from Turkmenistan. Would Bob Rae, as MND, have the NDA changed to allow me to pick and choose my wars? (Wait, I already chose: I chose to serve. My country will tell me where to go, whether I like it or not. Do you all honestly think I WANTED to go to Haiti?)
Anyway, boot them out!
Anyway, boot them out!
The navy guy was over there but never left the ship. He did not have to get involve with anything. He did not like the navy airforce bombing civilan home and destroying them.
Bob Rae is a joke; and would never fit in a command structure? "That mean business end of a gun barrel in his hole life time." :crybaby:
Bob Rae is a joke; and would never fit in a command structure? "That mean business end of a gun barrel in his hole life time." :crybaby:
OldSolduer
Army.ca Relic
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If you don't like the idea of killing other human beings, don't volunteer to join the military. After all, that is what a military body is supposed to do, unless I missed the memo.
Send this guy back, now. No more stays.
Send this guy back, now. No more stays.
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Mortarman Rockpainter said:
What’s wrong with Haiti? I went there on my Honeymoon. 8)
Anyway this latest stay of execution does not surprise me at all... disappoints me , but does not surprise me. Ah well time to go over to their web site and offer Jeffrey another ride down the QEW to Buffalo in the trunk. >
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Danjanou said:Ah well time to go over to their web site and offer Jeffrey another ride down the QEW to Buffalo in the trunk. >
hahahahahahahah...that's awesome....you didn't really..did you? ;D
Mortarman: I agree. My earlier statement was meant to be a bit tongue-in-cheek. After all, like you say, if they went through the whole process they would want to stay (and be welcome) in the U.S.
Given the long history of CO status in the U.S. I am surprised we do not hear more from those that do so successfully. I find it hard to believe that here have been no substantiated cases to date with the current conflict. Besides, I would think that the official movement would not want anything to do with these clowns throwing the term around (and trying to use it as a shield) and would try to distance themselves officially. I have yet to hear a report or see a website with a moderate voice for CO's, they all seem to be nutjobs ranting/raving about George and company and these clowns who have "been forced to flee" or some other such nonsense.
OldSolduer: Spectacular picture for your avatar.
Wook
OldSolduer
Army.ca Relic
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The avatar is my son, Cpl Mike Seggie, KIA 3 Sep 2008.
He was one hell of a man and died far too young.
He was one hell of a man and died far too young.
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