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U.S. Military Deserters in Canada Megathread

In the case of Hinzman, I don't doubt that he has some degree of conscientious objection.  He got involved with Quakers after joining the military and came to adopt their beliefs to a degree about war.  He failed the US Army's CO "test" by stating that if his friends were attacked he would pick up a rifle and fight to defend them (or words to that effect).  Regardless of that fact, none of that confered upon him a right to desert, and none of that was held relevant by the Board that denied him refugee status, because all they are to assess is whether he meets the convention definition of a refugee, which is this:

"A person who owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it.."

Good luck to any American trying to prove that applies to them.  Persecuted =/= prosecuted.  Get them sent back ASAP.

George Wallace said:
Just one point on that.  Conscientious Objectors don't usually join the Military in the first place.  One doesn't join the Military, and then suddenly discover that they are a "Conscientious Objector".

There are other ways for Conscientious Objectors to serve their nations, other than military.  They can work for Police Forces, any of the Emergency Services, Hospitals, etc.  They don't join the Military.

So Bob can talk about "Conscientious Objectors" being allowed to stay in Canada, but they are a completely different animal from the "Deserter" who willingly joined the Military for a wage and education/Trade signing a contract to do "Service in the Defence of their Nations Policies, at home and abroad".   

If Bob condones the breaking of binding contracts, then what else does he condone?
 
Once you sign the dotted line you are obligated to go and do what your told. If that involves the taking of human life.....then so be it. I'm ready to do it.

A lot of these people join for the "college money" and benefits, with little thought for their fellow man.

Send him back.
 
Funny how those who say soldiers should be able to pick and choose what fights they fight never seem to suggest the same option for police officers or firefighters.....
 
Once you sign the dotted line you are obligated to go and do what your told. If that involves the taking of human life.....then so be it. I'm ready to do it.

I'm just going to point out that you still have a responsibility to refuse illegal orders, etc., etc.

No, I'm not condoning this guys cowardice, nor do I think he is in any way justified.  Just figured as long as we were throwing absolutes around that a little context was in order.

Maybe that's already understood, but I like to see it in black and white.
 
There were some protesters for the "War resisters" at University and Queen around 5 pm today. I don't mind them expressing their point of view, but expressing THAT particular point of view right next to a war memorial is in very poor taste.
 
drunknsubmrnr said:
There were some protesters for the "War resisters" at University and Queen around 5 pm today. I don't mind them expressing their point of view, but expressing THAT particular point of view right next to a war memorial is in very poor taste.

I think your last three words summed it up.
 
Watching CFPL in London tonight, some protestors seemed to get irate with a little old lady whose son is serving in Afghanistan. They forced her to the edge of the sidewalk, nearly out on to a busy street. Nobody did anything to intervene. I am ashamed that such bullies recieve so much support in London, Ontario.
 
Thugs & ruffians...
And when things don't go their own way - they claim police brutality OR, complain that the authorities don't do their job

Give em a one way plane ticket to some unpleasant place so they can see for themselves what they are demonstrating about.
 
Hear Hear geo!! I fully agree.

They moan and whine that the government needs to do more, and when the government does, they still whine and moan.
They should be volunteering to be aid workers etc.
 
How many of these people have real jobs? I have a feeling that most don't,
they're just professional protestors/bums.
 
I seem to recall a few years ago priort to a G8 conference, protestors were holding classes teaching other protestors how to activley defeat tear gas etc as well as other things.
Who funds these people? Let's follow the money trail. I bet its interesting.
 
Good point,OldSolduer,follow the money trail.Somebody has an
agenda in funding these groups.
 
And I bet if you follow the trails....they lead to a city in Eastern Europe and a city in Asia.
 
milnews.ca said:
Funny how those who say soldiers should be able to pick and choose what fights they fight never seem to suggest the same option for police officers or firefighters.....

- You nailed it, Tony!

- Could even add 'Ambulance crews and emergency room staff". 
 
Bob Rae has no input to the justice system and can spout all the garbage,he want.
Unless an act in parilment is made or the PMO decide to intervene?
he are out of luck. That is why the war resisters group have no influence or power to push there USA problem in Canada.
Hizman will be return to his home country as a fugitive.
He won't have to pay any carbon tax for heating his cell.
 
Peter Worthington, Sun Media, 2008 01 02:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act:  Article LINK

Deserters are fleeing the consequences of their own decisions

By PETER WORTHINGTON

Last Updated: 2nd January 2009, 8:39am

As 2008 ended, a Northwestern University (Illinois) sociology professor made a pitch in a Toronto Sun column on behalf of U.S. military deserters seeking refuge in Canada.

John Hagan, who is also a University of Toronto professor emeritus, takes issue with Immigration Minister Jason Kenney's view that "U.S. military deserters are not genuine refugees and do not fall under internationally accepted definitions of people in need of protection."

He says denying U.S. deserters the right to stay permanently in Canada "on humanitarian and compassionate grounds" is untimely, unfair and wrong.

He also feels Kenney's view contradicts previous immigration minister Diane Finley's promise that each deserter's application to stay permanently in Canada would be determined on an impartial, case-by-case basis.

Hagan does not think immigration officers are independent or impartial in deciding cases, but follow policies outlined by the minister. He calls Kenney's statements just before Christmas "not only unexpected and untimely, they were unfair."

Although Hagan is a sociology professor, he specializes in law and criminology and has written books on deserters in Canada, war crimes in the Balkans, youth crime, and such.

What weakens his overall argument is that former immigration minister Finley's case-by-case "promise" is not necessarily incompatible with the new minister Kenney's more blunt observation that deserters don't qualify as refugees whose lives are in danger.

In his Sun article, Prof. Hagan doesn't use the word "deserter," but a dozen times in the piece he calls those seeking asylum "war resisters."

Many seeking sanctuary in Canada call themselves "conscientious objectors."

But most, if not all of them, enlisted in the military, and it's pretty difficult to view anyone who joins the army as being either a conscientious objector or a "war resister." Yet this is their claim, and the argument of their sympathizers and defenders.

During the Vietnam conflict there was a draft -- conscription. Draft-dodging is qualitatively different from deserting. The latter carries the taint of cowardice.

Most Canadians are probably not very admiring of those who join the army (for whatever reason) then cut and run rather than do what soldiers are expected to do.

Some deserters deported to the U.S. have received prison sentences of up to 15 months, which is hardly life-threatening.

Kenney is 100% correct -- deserters are not genuine refugees, but individuals trying to escape the consequences of their own decisions.

As well, they show considerable chutzpah, seeking refuge and favours from a country whose young men and women have volunteered and in Afghanistan are being killed in ever-rising numbers.

It could be argued that, in this particular war, those in the U.S. who join the army and then change their minds err when they head north for asylum.

Go south, young American deserter, to a country that is not at war.

The "fear" Prof. Hagan says many "war resisters" feel about the Harper government sending them back from whence they came, speaks volumes about the type of person fleeing his responsibilities.

One would think that courage, if not individual decency, would dictate that deserters face the consequences of their act rather than beg for sympathy from a country that is doing more than its share of difficult, dangerous and honourable work in Afghanistan.

Historically, Canada is not a warlike country; Canadians are not a militaristic people. But when, as a country, we have gone to war, our citizen-soldiers want to get the job done quickly, efficiently and are formidable fighters without losing their humanity.

Look at the humanitarian work our soldiers do in every theatre.

Pity "war resisters" lack the ethic that resonates in Canadian soldiers.

 
Perhaps we should actually keep them in Canada, enlist them into the Army, and see how they work out in our own global operations?  ???
 
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