U.S. Military Deserters in Canada Megathread

[Jarnhamar]

How well would the system work if cops got to pick and choose which laws they enforce, or which areas they agree to enforce the law in

Not to argue semantics (?) but cops DO pick and choose which laws they enforce to a lesser extent. They have leeway with traffic stops at the very least.

 

[armyguy1290]

If they believe in their position so strongly, why don't they accept the consequences of the decision they've made? 

He did the "crime", but he also did the time.

How well would the system work if cops got to pick and choose which laws they enforce, or which areas they agree to enforce the law in - or not because they don't believe in the rules?  Don't like the rules?  Don't get in.  Don't like them when you're in?  Get out, and be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions.

And this is why I do not agree with what they are doing (like I said, I do not support them), I would just like to clarify that point.

Sorry if it came off as I was sticking up for them, it was just more probing for more of his opinion.

 

[The_Falcon]

I am pretty sure that point/sentiment has been highlighted numerous times within the 49 pages of this thread, perhaps you should go to the beginning and start there.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Not to argue semantics (?) but cops DO pick and choose which laws they enforce to a lesser extent. They have leeway with traffic stops at the very least.

Good point - I wasn't clear enough re:  situational discretion/legal "triage" vs. "this law is wrong, so I'm NEVER going to enforce it, and you can't make me" in spite of being told to.

 

[tomahawk6]

I dont like deserters,in my book they are cowards.I am heartened that Canada has rolled up the welcome mat.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-soldiers-opposed-war-now-canada-less-hospitable-153458414.html

BUFFALO, N.Y. (AP) — When Army Sgt. Patrick Hart decided a decade ago that he would not serve in the war in Iraq, he expected to follow the same path as thousands of American war resisters during the Vietnam era and take refuge across the border.

But after five years of wrangling with the Canadian immigration system, he came back to the U.S. — and ended up in a military prison.

The country that once welcomed war resisters has developed a much different reputation during the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan: Supporters say no U.S. soldier who has sought legal residence in Canada, either as a refugee or on humanitarian grounds, has been successful.

"Nobody's won," said Hart, a Buffalo native who exhausted his legal options then turned himself in to the Army, was court-martialed for desertion and sentenced to two years in prison.

There are an estimated two dozen U.S. military members still waiting out their fate in Canada, and the resisters' movement is seen as nearing a crossroads. With a national election three months away, supporters are hopeful for a Liberal Party victory and more sympathetic stance toward American military exiles, but bracing for the possibility Conservative Prime Minister Stephen Harper wins re-election.

 

[tomahawk6]

OMG I didnt realize there WAS a megthread for deserters.The most recent post was 2012,holy necrothread batman.

 

[Kilo_302]

The marketing militaries do always shows the glamorous side of war, and always highlights the benefits. People shouldn't be faulted for believing that anymore than people are faulted for buying the evidence used to go to war in Iraq in the first place. This particularly applies to lower income recruits in the US. Recruiting is specifically geared to them as the only realistic way they can get a college education and benefits for their families.

Your average person is not going to understand that they will be chanting "what makes the grass grow" in basic unless they know someone with personal experience. And in terms of being a coward, I would suggest that in many ways facing being ostracized by your peer group, facing jail time and shame is worse than risking death or injury in a war zone. That's EXACTLY HOW young men have been convinced to go to war since the dawn of history. If you're brought up on the idea that when the US uses force it's always just, that the military always tries to protect civilians and then you witness atrocities (accidental or otherwise), or the training you receive has racist overtones of course you're going to doubt the decision you've made.

The answer is to stop advertising the military as a summer camp with free dental work and start showing what combat/ war is like.

 

[Strike]

The answer is to stop advertising the military as a summer camp with free dental work and start showing what combat/ war is like.

How about people take responsibility for their choices?  There is no reason NOT to know what war is like.  All one has to do is go to the library or surf the net.  Imagine, doing research before making a huge life choice.  Free education and health care?  Awesome...but what's the catch?  Oh, I might have to go to a war zone?  Maybe they decide to play the odds on that one but, when the call comes, they have to face the reality.

As for advertising, you don't see McDonalds or Burger King ads filled with obese people stuffing their faces.  But we all know that too much of that type of food could lead to just that situation.

Here's one for you.  A CF-18 pilot, really good at what he does.  But realizes that one day he might be ordered to drop bombs on people and he feels that he just can't do that, but he loves the military and wants to stay in.  He became a Padre.

The fact that these war resistors decided to run away as opposed to facing up to their choices to not deploy or go to war and risk jail time gives the impression that they lack any type of personal responsibility.  I wonder if anyone has ever thought that, if they hadn't run to a whole other country, their sentences might have been drastically lower.

 

[CountDC]

I agree Kilo that the marketing is geared towards getting people in but that is the same thing all companies do.  Come work for us and have a great life.  Don't see companies doing recruiting by saying come work for us, be treated like crap, harassed and then fired next year because we have decided to downsize your position.  As long as they don't put false information into the recruiting spin then nothing wrong there. (no more join infantry and then change to what you really want anytime you want).  The numerous war games that teens are now living in and thinking it gives them real cred for the military doesn't help.  Put on all the gear, grab your machine gun and run around like you can in the games.  Die?  Too easy, respawn and carry on.   

In this Sgts case, he was around long enough to get the rank so knew how things were before Irag popped up.  He had the time to quit prior and instead opted to desert when Irag came into play.  If Irag never happened would he have left or continued on with his career until mandatory retirement?  I think his issue was not serving with the military and getting the benefits, it was going to Iraq.  He should have requested his release and then did his job until the release date.

I also agree that it may not be cowardice.  Some may be legitimately opposed to this war but in another situation that they belief in be at the front of the pack ready to go no matter what the risk.  Fortunately that is not how military life works - you do not get to pick which war to participate in, that is done for you.  Don't like it? Then release.

 

[Kirkhill]

This is how it is done. 

But Muhammad/Cassius was coerced into his situation by the state.  The modern "objector" voluntarily put themselves in that position.

Muhammad Ali was born as Cassius Clay on January 18, 1942, in Louisville, Kentucky. He started boxing at the age of twelve, won two Golden Gloves championships, and in 1960 won the gold medal at the Rome Olympic Games. Patterning himself after the wrestler Gorgeous George, he developed into a showman, and in 1964 he won the heavyweight championship by defeating Sonny Listen. Immediately after becoming heavyweight champion, he joined the Black Muslims and took the name Muhammad Ali. Two years later his draft board revoked his 1-Y deferment, which he had received for failing the IQ test, and reclassified him 1-A. Ali appealed for deferment as a conscientious objector on religious principles. "I ain't got no quarrel with those Vietcong, anyway," he said. "They never called me nigger." His appeal was denied and he was drafted on April 18, 1967. Ali refused to go, the World Boxing Association stripped him of the championship, and in June 1967 he was convicted of violating the Selective Service Act, fined $10,000, and sentenced to five years in prison. Ali became a hero of the antiwar movement, as well as for poor people and blacks. In June 1970 the Supreme Court reversed his conviction, and in October 1974 Ali regained the heavyweight championship. He retired from boxing in 1980. Later that year, President Jimmy Carter appointed him as a special envoy to Africa to urge an African boycott of the 1980 Olympic Games in Moscow.

 

[Staff Weenie]

I cannot possibly believe that anybody is naive enough to not realize that when you join the military, there's a good chance you're going to be sent somewhere nasty.  Americans, of all people, know that their military has been involved in more wars of varying size, that you can count on your fingers and toes.  Their strong patriotism as a nation keeps their military in the limelight, unlike Canada, where most folks haven't a clue what we did between Korea and Afghanistan.

I have no respect for somebody who takes the free education, the pay, the benefits, and then runs for it when they are called upon. 

 

[Old Sweat]

I cannot possibly believe that anybody is naive enough to not realize that when you join the military, there's a good chance you're going to be sent somewhere nasty.  Americans, of all people, know that their military has been involved in more wars of varying size, that you can count on your fingers and toes.  Their strong patriotism as a nation keeps their military in the limelight, unlike Canada, where most folks haven't a clue what we did between Korea and Afghanistan.

I have no respect for somebody who takes the free education, the pay, the benefits, and then runs for it when they are called upon.

:bravo:  :goodpost:  :bravo:

 

[Good2Golf]

I cannot possibly believe that anybody is naive enough to not realize that when you join the military, there's a good chance you're going to be sent somewhere nasty.  Americans, of all people, know that their military has been involved in more wars of varying size, that you can count on your fingers and toes.  Their strong patriotism as a nation keeps their military in the limelight, unlike Canada, where most folks haven't a clue what we did between Korea and Afghanistan.

Agree. 

It's just like 'Call of Duty' except you can get physically injured or die...

 

[jollyjacktar]

Agree. 

It's just like 'Call of Duty' except you can get physically injured or die...

He'll, I can't say I looked that cool in the sandbox...

 

[Good2Golf]

...at least in real life I didn't frag myself with my own grenade...my son would point out my poor X-Box controller discipline hitting the left front bumper (drop grenade command) all the time.  Good thing I had my M67 TOETs sorted out...

 

[Kilo_302]

Agree. 

It's just like 'Call of Duty' except you can get physically injured or die...

This is pretty hilarious.

http://www.theonion.com/video/ultra-realistic-modern-warfare-game-features-await-14382

- mod edit to fix link -

 

[Harrigan]

Fortunately that is not how military life works - you do not get to pick which war to participate in, that is done for you.  Don't like it? Then release.

I think you've hit on the key - once you sign up, you don't get to pick and choose your wars. 

I'd be interested to know if the desertions were predominantly about Afghanistan (where the pretext for the war was pretty clear), or about Iraq (a war in which the pretext for invasion was 'dubious').  My gut feel is that there were very few for the former, and many more for the latter.

Nevertheless, everyone needs to read the fine print in their enlistment contracts. (same with Stop-Loss)

Harrigan

 

[The Bread Guy]

The latest on this side of the border ...

The Liberal government is reviewing Canada’s stance on American war dodgers who have sought refuge in this country rather than fight in Iraq, Prime Minister Trudeau said Friday.

Trudeau, however, gave no commitments that Ottawa might smooth the path to permanent residency for the conscientious objectors, some of whom have been forced to return to the U.S. to face prison terms, but said the issue was a live one.

“It’s one that we are looking into actively as a government,” Trudeau said after a transit-funding announcement in Toronto. He did not elaborate.

Outside the transit yard where Trudeau was speaking, a handful of protesters from the War Resisters Support Campaign quietly held up a banner and signs calling on the government to let them stay.

( ... )

In an email to The Canadian Press last month, a spokesman for Immigration Minister John McCallum said he had “no indication that a decision was made or is about to be made” on the issue ...

I wonder how these war resisters would feel if someone was threatening their family, or breaking into their house, and the cops showed up saying, "You know, violence is not the answer - it's NEVER the answer.  Also, there are historical reasons this person hates us, so maybe non-intervention is the best solution.  In any case, because of the history, I don't believe I'll enforce this particular law."

 

[PuckChaser]

This makes sense, Trudeau wants terrorists to keep their citizenship, might as well let in our country's cowards as well.

 

[Jarnhamar]

This makes sense, Trudeau wants terrorists to keep their citizenship, might as well let in our country's cowards as well.

Smart way to get reelected lol