Updated Army Service Dress project

[OldSolduer]

I don't think puttees would work on any of the footwear folks are wearing these days. You'd need to ramp up the issue of ankle boots.

You couldn’t make someone wear a standard colour puttee anyways - it would take away their identity- whatever that might be.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Noooooooooooooooooo!!!!

 

[dimsum]

4 million is a drop in the bucket, sure. Is that good justification for waste though?

I would say that it's the cost of doing business.

We nickel and dime our folks enough, even contradicting our policies sometimes (e.g. Business Class for CAL flights over 11 hours or a layover, which is routinely ignored). At some point, any organization will have waste and yes, the really egregious stuff should be stopped.

But, for our budget, this amount (which is over 4+ years as per the documentation) is really not that much.

 

[dimsum]

You couldn’t make someone wear a standard colour puttee anyways - it would take away their identity- whatever that might be.

Is that...

puts on sunglasses

....Individualism?


Heeeeeeyyyyyyyyyyyahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!

 

[KevinB]

I would say that it's the cost of doing business.

We nickel and dime our folks enough, even contradicting our policies sometimes (e.g. Business Class for CAL flights over 11 hours or a layover, which is routinely ignored). At some point, any organization will have waste and yes, the really egregious stuff should be stopped.

But, for our budget, this amount (which is over 4+ years as per the documentation) is really not that much.

One would also argue that actually acquiring modern effective equipment is also a cost of doing business when one has a Military. But most Canadians seem to disagree.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I would say that it's the cost of doing business.

We nickel and dime our folks enough, even contradicting our policies sometimes (e.g. Business Class for CAL flights over 11 hours or a layover, which is routinely ignored). At some point, any organization will have waste and yes, the really egregious stuff should be stopped.

But, for our budget, this amount (which is over 4+ years as per the documentation) is really not that much.

I just think the “it’s only 4 million” mentality is part of the CAF (and fed govt) culture that needs to be curtailed. All the “it’s only x million” add up in the CAF.

I’ll take $5000 of that if able and get some decent 2 piece flight suits made, seeing as the supply is running out and there’s no effin replacement for them yet, let alone on the shelves at Clothing Stores.

Maybe the C Army DEU team can take over the seemingly insurmountably complicated “RCAF ball hat” project…

 

[rmc_wannabe]

One would also argue that actually acquiring modern effective equipment is also a cost of doing business when one has a Military. But most Canadians Politicians seem to view it as economic stimulus

FTFY.

Multi-billion dollar procurement of operational kit is essential to a modern military. Most in the political class want that money spent in Canada to curry favour, votes, or stimulate stagnant economic sectors.

It's not a matter of "Look at how this is improving our ability to maintain National Security or project Foreign Policy influence" but "This project is turning X billion dollars into X Thousand jobs in this community and helping ensure Canada is competitive on the global market blah, blah, blah..."

There's a reason they announce projects at GDLS in London or Irving in NS. It's not about the product or capability; it's about the production and the follow on votes.

Do I like it? Fuck no. Do I understand the theatrics? Hell yes.

@Eye In The Sky I can see the glint coming off the Axe you have to grind with this project moving forward. Do I think it's the hill to die on? Not personally, but you do you. You don't have to put a pair of DEUs through the same kind O QC you do with Flight Gear. Ball caps should be a slam dunk, but if they're still dragging ass, that's a huge question mark.

I would posit that we as a CAF assume that if we did away with "buttons and bows" that we would see further efficiencies or funding towards operational projects. Until our procurement is no longer a slush fund for votes, I don't share that same optimism.

All I see in this is a shining beacon of hope I will no longer bake like a meatloaf on parade, in a poorly designed and fitted lounge suit, to ride out the tail end of my time in uniform.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Unless the new DEU is similar to the windbreaker suits of the 80s, you’re still going to bake in it - blue lightweight DEU in a SS shirt is still a sauna suit on a summer CofC parade.

I think this and other projects show we waste time and money on the wrong things and our military capabilities, or lack of them, demonstrate it. Our institutional leaders get focused on fashion and how they look next to their counterparts in photo ops or something…whatever it is, the CAF ends up spending time and money on it. RCAF leather jackets, executive curl on Navy DEU, etc.

Problem - C Army DEU material is in short supply. Solution - let’s reinvent the entire thing then.

Other solution, less time and money spent - find replacement material.

As I’ve said - we excel at the unimportant stuff like dress uniforms and suck at the important stuff like operational equipment and kit. Institutionally, it seems like the majority are ok with the status quo. I guess I’m one of the minority who isn’t.

I’ll wager the army DEU is sourced and issued before the new 2 piece flying suit is…

 

[Navy_Pete]

All I see in this is a shining beacon of hope I will no longer bake like a meatloaf on parade, in a poorly designed and fitted lounge suit, to ride out the tail end of my time in uniform.

Nah, you'll still bake like a meatload, you'll just have different looking shell, that will be poorly designed and fitted in a new way. Last time I got a shirt 'tailored' the poor tailor had to disassemble the shirt to cut it down as there was an entire extra shirt worth of material on the panels, so was way beyond just a few arrows on the back. The new shirts are so cheap I don't even bother.

The navy 'summer white dress' clothing is a prime example, plastic heavy weight white pants may actually be warmer than lighter white black wool pants, and the plastic white shoes are like ankle cut wellingtons that you occasionally get to pour out sweat from (and some blood from the inevitable chaffing from cheap seems if you walk far in them). We suck at bows and buttons too, but at least when actual projects deliver something there is an operational capability there..

 

[TacticalTea]

Nah, you'll still bake like a meatload, you'll just have different looking shell, that will be poorly designed and fitted in a new way. Last time I got a shirt 'tailored' the poor tailor had to disassemble the shirt to cut it down as there was an entire extra shirt worth of material on the panels, so was way beyond just a few arrows on the back. The new shirts are so cheap I don't even bother.

The navy 'summer white dress' clothing is a prime example, plastic heavy weight white pants may actually be warmer than lighter white black wool pants, and the plastic white shoes are like ankle cut wellingtons that you occasionally get to pour out sweat from (and some blood from the inevitable chaffing from cheap seems if you walk far in them). We suck at bows and buttons too, but at least when actual projects deliver something there is an operational capability there..

They should just give us a budget to buy our own dress shoes.

The crap they give us is painfully uncomfortable. Horrendous.

 

[Furniture]

I just think the “it’s only 4 million” mentality is part of the CAF (and fed govt) culture that needs to be curtailed. All the “it’s only x million” add up in the CAF.

I’ll take $5000 of that if able and get some decent 2 piece flight suits made, seeing as the supply is running out and there’s no effin replacement for them yet, let alone on the shelves at Clothing Stores.

Maybe the C Army DEU team can take over the seemingly insurmountably complicated “RCAF ball hat” project…

I suspect that issue is entirely an RCAF caused issue... When you have a system of tests and evaluations required before anything can be used, but then fail to adequately train people or staff the positions, things will fall apart. The CA getting new DEUs isn't impacting your flight suits in any way.

We can't get new Met kit because it needs to go through RCAF OT&E. OT&E through a unit that has no Met people, so our people are double hatting OT&E along with other tasks like pers management, so the kit stuff drops off the radar.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I suspect that issue is entirely an RCAF caused issue... When you have a system of tests and evaluations required before anything can be used, but then fail to adequately train people or staff the positions, things will fall apart. The CA getting new DEUs isn't impacting your flight suits in any way.

We can't get new Met kit because it needs to go through RCAF OT&E. OT&E through a unit that has no Met people, so our people are double hatting OT&E along with other tasks like pers management, so the kit stuff drops off the radar.

We are short of the procurement folks, contracting folks etc that is preventing us from moving forward with basic bin filling. If we're short on the procurement side of things to buy life safety things, but they have people to work on dress uniforms, some redistribution of responsibilities would be good.

If you can double hat to OT&E, folks on uniforms can double hat to tiger teams to try and keep up with the backlog of min/max orders and HPRs. Most of that is process driven and they don't have to have any real knowledge about the equipment, but we need people to put together RFPs, act as a POC for the questions and run the bids.

 

[Furniture]

We are short of the procurement folks, contracting folks etc that is preventing us from moving forward with basic bin filling. If we're short on the procurement side of things to buy life safety things, but they have people to work on dress uniforms, some redistribution of responsibilities would be good.

If you can double hat to OT&E, folks on uniforms can double hat to tiger teams to try and keep up with the backlog of min/max orders and HPRs. Most of that is process driven and they don't have to have any real knowledge about the equipment, but we need people to put together RFPs, act as a POC for the questions and run the bids.

That's assuming the people on DEUs aren't already double/triple hatted on other things. With the CAF short about 10K people, and lacking a lot of the middle folks with 15-25 years of experience I suspect things won't be getting any better.

 

[Navy_Pete]

That's assuming the people on DEUs aren't already double/triple hatted on other things. With the CAF short about 10K people, and lacking a lot of the middle folks with 15-25 years of experience I suspect things won't be getting any better.

They likely are, but a new design project won't help. That should have been below the priority cut off line, and the fact that it isn't is fairly indicative of how out of touch the BGHs are, as they tend to push pet projects regardless of the capacity or impact.

 

[dimsum]

Ball caps should be a slam dunk, but if they're still dragging ass, that's a huge question mark.

To you and @Eye In The Sky re ball caps:

I have it on good authority that the dragging is due to the company not being able to get the X thousand caps out by Jan 2023.

The delay wasn't from the RCAF.

 

[Furniture]

To you and @Eye In The Sky re ball caps:

I have it on good authority that the dragging is due to the company not being able to get the X thousand caps out by Jan 2023.

The delay wasn't from the RCAF.

Just change DEU to navy if you want a ball cap, that's what I did...

 

[dimsum]

Just change DEU to navy if you want a ball cap, that's what I did...

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Just change DEU to navy if you want a ball cap, that's what I did...

 

[Furniture]

View attachment 76476

In fairness it wasn't just the ball cap, the new RCN peak caps are pretty awesome too.

 

[daftandbarmy]

In fairness it wasn't just the ball cap, the new RCN peak caps are pretty awesome too.

I'm still waiting for these to be issued, with cap badges affixed