Variant of C7A2, the Different Canadian Sniper Rifle and C9A2
- Thread starter soldiers301
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seems some officer though he needed it more than I - so I raided my buddies C8 while he was on HLTA (it is MY Aimpoint).
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I haven't read all the thread here so I apologize if it was mentioned.
Reference the shorter C9 barrel. I read somewhere, I think here but I will look for the source, that the shorter barrel is a FIBUA barrel. This barrel was made shorter so that the machinegunner use the C9 more easily in confined spaces. It is also important to note that C9 gunners will as a result be carrying 3 barrels instead of 2 (2x normal barrel and the 1 Fibua barrel).
[Edit]
I found that source, it was posted here some months ago. I remembered it a little incorrectly as it says a gunner would be issued 2 short barrels instead of one. Anyways here is that source, though I don't think it is as reliable as I remembered it to be. . .
(3) Barrel. New short barrels have to be
procured with a collapsible carrying handle. The short barrel will be for
specific ops such as parachuting, FIBUA, and fighting in complex terrain
versus a full-length barrel (466mm). It is envisioned that each C9A2 gunner
will be issued two short and two long barrels and use depending on the
mission in conjunction with an integral Backup Iron Sight.
http://army.ca/forums/threads/16430/post-73555.html#msg73555
Reference the shorter C9 barrel. I read somewhere, I think here but I will look for the source, that the shorter barrel is a FIBUA barrel. This barrel was made shorter so that the machinegunner use the C9 more easily in confined spaces. It is also important to note that C9 gunners will as a result be carrying 3 barrels instead of 2 (2x normal barrel and the 1 Fibua barrel).
[Edit]
I found that source, it was posted here some months ago. I remembered it a little incorrectly as it says a gunner would be issued 2 short barrels instead of one. Anyways here is that source, though I don't think it is as reliable as I remembered it to be. . .
(3) Barrel. New short barrels have to be
procured with a collapsible carrying handle. The short barrel will be for
specific ops such as parachuting, FIBUA, and fighting in complex terrain
versus a full-length barrel (466mm). It is envisioned that each C9A2 gunner
will be issued two short and two long barrels and use depending on the
mission in conjunction with an integral Backup Iron Sight.
http://army.ca/forums/threads/16430/post-73555.html#msg73555
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Curently only one long and one short are issued.
However according to DLR there will be two of both with the folding handle.
Most users prefer the short bbl for all uses - and bullet drop is aprox 6" different at 500m when using short to long (not 6' like some are saying...)
Cheers
However according to DLR there will be two of both with the folding handle.
Most users prefer the short bbl for all uses - and bullet drop is aprox 6" different at 500m when using short to long (not 6' like some are saying...)
Cheers
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Is that a silencer on beside the C7CT??
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were you with a specialized unit over there? or is that the normaly issued weapons now?
M
MG34
Guest
It's all normal scale of issue for a deployed Infantry Bn.Note the "deployed " bit as it will be a while before any of this stuff gets into widespread issue (C7A2,C9A2,SFW,etc) The CT is already issued to units as are C8A1 for the most part.
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MG34 said:
I wish, our unit has nothing close to that, i have broken both our C6's(not my fault). And our C9s are sketchy, and we got like 4 times as many C9s as we need. I heard that the CTs are supposed to be around, and i know of some units that have them, but definatly not mine. I have never even seen a C8 in real life, in 3 years in. meh it will come eventually. Maby if i get on OP BRONZE i may see it there.
M
MG34
Guest
foerestedwarrior said:
That would be Reg Force units,not the Reserves they will have to wait for theirs.The C7CT & AR10 will not as I have been told be issued to the Reserves
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Its kewl, im usually a gunner anyways, so unless we replace the C6, it usually doesnt affect me
P
pappy
Guest
I've heard that the AR-10's (7.62mm / .308) arn't standing up well to heavy military use, becuase of the higher power of the bigger round. More wear and tear effecting long term accuracy.
Not to say I wouldn't want one..... well maybe if Bush is relected I'll give myself a early birthday gift. ;D
Its my opinion that there should bacically be three style of rifles, lets leave machine guns / SAW's out of the conversation for a bit...
1, Standard issue weapon: M16A2 / C7A2 (semi-auto and burst mode only)
(I believe these are the same, as I'm a former Marine I know the US designations and may make a error on CAF names, so bare with me)
The above goes to all enlisted, SNCO's and Officers. (no sense making the Officers stand out in a crowd more then they do now).
If funds available 1X Aimpoints, or Trijicon Reflex type units. (whole another agurement on 3 to 4x scopes on all personal weapons)
2, on a limited basis, to the best shooters, i.e. Disgnated Marksmen: M16A3 (Semi-auto, burst AND full-auto) WITH heavier match grade barrrels, slighty heavier, lets not go overboard.
(flat top with Aimpoint (or matching to above) AND 4x32 ACOG & 3.5-10x40 scope, 3rd scope if funds available... AND if terrian warrents its use) (not all 3 carried at once)
Issued in a perfect world one per fireteam, or at least one per squad.
The reason for full-auto option on this rifle and not #1 is that someone with better then average shooting skills will be better with full-auto and make it count. Full-auto is great for everyone in video games, but a waste of ammo. Well placed semi-auot fire is much more pratical and effective, burst mode is fine for traget rich enviroments with someone armed with type #1.
3, Sinper rifle, 7.62mm bolt action. Lets face facts bolt actions are more accurate and cheaper then trying to make a semi-auto sniper weapon system, buy more bolt gus and train more snipers. If designated snipers need semi-auto, see rifle #2 above. Note this rifle #2 should be the Spotters rifle.
(sniper teams in my opinion should be two man teams.)
3.5-10x40 optics as standard, and since its a perfect world, a second 1.5-6x40 for urban work. With a possible M4A3 as a second weapon as needed with ACOG.
Of course Snipers these days have other larger boomers available, i.e. .50 cals for anti-material, looooonnnngggg range stuff.
#1 and #2 should have iron sights as backups. And all should have night-vision/thermal abilities as needed. All optics should have tritium reticals as well as the iron sights having tritium inserts.
To me this makes the most sense. Granted Special Forces units will have different needs. And of course 40mm gernade lunchers should be added to #1 as needed.
I don't think everyone should be armed with some tricked out M4A3 with 40mm bloop tube as much as we all would like that. ;D
Let's not get started on M14's for DM rifles, a fine rifle I agree, I love mine, but the US Army spent millions trying to make a slik purse out of a sow's ear. It's just too hard to get semi-autos to maintain sniper rifle accuracy for thier life span. Civilian use / match shooting is a whole different beast then combat. The US military just doesn't have the trained personal or parts to maintian the M14 these days. Hence the deveilopment of the AR-10.
Personaly if the military is going to develop a semi-auto sniper rifle like the AR-10 there needs to be a redesign on the gas system.
Do Snipers really need semi-autos? If there are large groups of targets, isn't that what Arty and close-air support is for?
Not to say I wouldn't want one..... well maybe if Bush is relected I'll give myself a early birthday gift. ;D
Its my opinion that there should bacically be three style of rifles, lets leave machine guns / SAW's out of the conversation for a bit...
1, Standard issue weapon: M16A2 / C7A2 (semi-auto and burst mode only)
(I believe these are the same, as I'm a former Marine I know the US designations and may make a error on CAF names, so bare with me)
The above goes to all enlisted, SNCO's and Officers. (no sense making the Officers stand out in a crowd more then they do now).
If funds available 1X Aimpoints, or Trijicon Reflex type units. (whole another agurement on 3 to 4x scopes on all personal weapons)
2, on a limited basis, to the best shooters, i.e. Disgnated Marksmen: M16A3 (Semi-auto, burst AND full-auto) WITH heavier match grade barrrels, slighty heavier, lets not go overboard.
(flat top with Aimpoint (or matching to above) AND 4x32 ACOG & 3.5-10x40 scope, 3rd scope if funds available... AND if terrian warrents its use) (not all 3 carried at once)
Issued in a perfect world one per fireteam, or at least one per squad.
The reason for full-auto option on this rifle and not #1 is that someone with better then average shooting skills will be better with full-auto and make it count. Full-auto is great for everyone in video games, but a waste of ammo. Well placed semi-auot fire is much more pratical and effective, burst mode is fine for traget rich enviroments with someone armed with type #1.
3, Sinper rifle, 7.62mm bolt action. Lets face facts bolt actions are more accurate and cheaper then trying to make a semi-auto sniper weapon system, buy more bolt gus and train more snipers. If designated snipers need semi-auto, see rifle #2 above. Note this rifle #2 should be the Spotters rifle.
(sniper teams in my opinion should be two man teams.)
3.5-10x40 optics as standard, and since its a perfect world, a second 1.5-6x40 for urban work. With a possible M4A3 as a second weapon as needed with ACOG.
Of course Snipers these days have other larger boomers available, i.e. .50 cals for anti-material, looooonnnngggg range stuff.
#1 and #2 should have iron sights as backups. And all should have night-vision/thermal abilities as needed. All optics should have tritium reticals as well as the iron sights having tritium inserts.
To me this makes the most sense. Granted Special Forces units will have different needs. And of course 40mm gernade lunchers should be added to #1 as needed.
I don't think everyone should be armed with some tricked out M4A3 with 40mm bloop tube as much as we all would like that. ;D
Let's not get started on M14's for DM rifles, a fine rifle I agree, I love mine, but the US Army spent millions trying to make a slik purse out of a sow's ear. It's just too hard to get semi-autos to maintain sniper rifle accuracy for thier life span. Civilian use / match shooting is a whole different beast then combat. The US military just doesn't have the trained personal or parts to maintian the M14 these days. Hence the deveilopment of the AR-10.
Personaly if the military is going to develop a semi-auto sniper rifle like the AR-10 there needs to be a redesign on the gas system.
Do Snipers really need semi-autos? If there are large groups of targets, isn't that what Arty and close-air support is for?
P
pappy
Guest
addressing the one post that commented on the 11.5" barrel lenght with 5.56mm / .223........
having owned one.... repeat after me "extreme muzzle flash" I knew you could.
Impressive to say the least, but even with a 4.5" flash hider, it was a lost cause.
Lots of velocity loss I agree, but also agreed not that much loss in accuracy, to a point, since the one I had was a Match grade 11.5" barrel. But loss of velocity = loss of accuracy at LONGER ranges, that's a given, slower bullets are more driven off course by wind.
At combat ranges? maybe not an issue these days, but hitting power is a problem from 11.5" barrels
I don't see the need for anything less then 14.5" on something like the M4 series. A good compromise.
having owned one.... repeat after me "extreme muzzle flash" I knew you could.
Impressive to say the least, but even with a 4.5" flash hider, it was a lost cause.
Lots of velocity loss I agree, but also agreed not that much loss in accuracy, to a point, since the one I had was a Match grade 11.5" barrel. But loss of velocity = loss of accuracy at LONGER ranges, that's a given, slower bullets are more driven off course by wind.
At combat ranges? maybe not an issue these days, but hitting power is a problem from 11.5" barrels
I don't see the need for anything less then 14.5" on something like the M4 series. A good compromise.
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Well I am getting more and more diagreeable over the day ;D
I don't agree with pappy whatsoever. He comes the KevinB RANT...
Ecerpts from my service rifle paper..
Weapon Footprint:
The size of the C7 is overly large for the roles of mechanized, light infantry, and special operation capable (or SOC) forces. 1PPCLI experiences in Kosovo have been documented, and the requirement for a smaller more maneuverable weapon was noted in the unit AAR. Soldiers repeatedly used pistols as a more handy and controllable (but less effective) weapon during VCP's / Cordon and Searches etc. Experience in Mechanized exercises and deployments highlights the need for a shorter and more maneuverable weapon. The space in a LAVIII APC is at a premium, and to exit the vehicle quickly and still be able to bring accurate fire immediately upon enemy forces a shorter weapon is required. 3PPLCI's combat experiences in Afghanistan are a true test of the C7/C7A1 and example of the desirability of the shorter C8/M4 Carbine
style weapon. Soldiers were constantly interested in the C8 carbine due to its short length and lighter weight. Light Infantry soldiers are encumbered by an assortment of bulk and heavy items in addition to their personal weapons. The 3PPCLI AAR asks for the Diemaco 16â ? SFW to compensate issues with the C8's 14.5â ?bbl.
Velocity table a few of us did up in testing 20" 16" and 14.5" Barrels
for those unfamilair with the mechanisms of wounding for the C77/M855/SS109 projectivel please consult the AMMO-ORACLE
Sgt L. M. Gauley, CD's article in the Vol.6 No.1 Spring 2003 issue of the
Doctrine and Training Bulletin make clear the tasks that are required of
both Light Infantry (occasionally the need for Mechanized Infantry to
function as Light) and the skill sets, and equipment that are required for
those missions and that most of these mission in other armies would be farmed to
SOF's.
2) Modularity: The C7A1 Rifle's Picatinny type rail on the upper receiver (note the
Diemaco Rail spec is not a true M1913 Picatinny spec rail) is not long enough to
accommodate all of the required modular weapon system accessories of modern Armies
IR Laser/Illuminators, Visible Lights, NV systems, grenade and less lethal launcher
systems. To make effective use of these systems a modular weapons system is needed so
items can be added and subtracted as needed. The other users of plastic stock furniture
weapons (i.e. the US Army and USMC) have made several strides . Many allied rifle
and carbine upgrades call for an uninterrupted M1913 spec top rail.
C7A2
Observations
The midlife replacement project is making the C7/C8 a more versatile
option. Admitted there are currently deficiencies in the C7A1. Currently DLR has proposed the C7A2 to fulfill the deficiencies of the C7A1
Ambidextrous Magazine release;
Ambidextrous Fire Control Selector;
Diemaco Triad 1 (Light and Laser Adapter)
Green Furniture;
C79 Upgrade;Green C79 Sight Cover, replace Tritium Source (10year half life), and Retrofit 4 gen Side Spring
Accuwedge; and
C8 4 Position Telescopic butt
Recommendations
1. The C7A2 appears to be a start in the right direction but did not go far enough.
The weapon footprint was not fully addressed. While the idea of a telescoping
buttstock is desirable , the 4 position Diemaco stock is not a good representation
of the available choices in telescopic stocks.
· The US Military has adopted the newer Colt 6 position stock for use on
the M4A1 Carbines and other weapons that has a larger toe â “ providing
both better purchase on the stock from the shoulder, and diffusing the
recoil impulse to a greater degree.
· USSOCOM has adopted a number of Modular telescopic stocks, from the
Crane Enhanced M4 Stock, the VLTOR, and the Magpul M93 MSS.
· Other off the Shelf Manufactures are creating modular stocks with
multiple positions that provide even greater flexibility to the shooter (7+)
· Collapsible Stocks allow for the tailoring of the weapon to each
individual shooter to adjust to both stature and size, but also the
encumberment of equipment and combat clothing.
2. Barrel: With the shift in focus of the CF toward the close combat environment5 it
does not make sense to retain the 20â ? barrel of the C7. USSOCOM testing6 by
USNSWC Crane has shown the 18.25â ? bbl (Mk12 SPR) is the optimum bbl
length for accuracy and muzzle velocity; however the 16â ? midlength system is
the best overall combat length barrel for multipurpose roles occasioned by
Infantry and Special Operations Forces
More to follow
I don't agree with pappy whatsoever. He comes the KevinB RANT...
Ecerpts from my service rifle paper..
Weapon Footprint:
The size of the C7 is overly large for the roles of mechanized, light infantry, and special operation capable (or SOC) forces. 1PPCLI experiences in Kosovo have been documented, and the requirement for a smaller more maneuverable weapon was noted in the unit AAR. Soldiers repeatedly used pistols as a more handy and controllable (but less effective) weapon during VCP's / Cordon and Searches etc. Experience in Mechanized exercises and deployments highlights the need for a shorter and more maneuverable weapon. The space in a LAVIII APC is at a premium, and to exit the vehicle quickly and still be able to bring accurate fire immediately upon enemy forces a shorter weapon is required. 3PPLCI's combat experiences in Afghanistan are a true test of the C7/C7A1 and example of the desirability of the shorter C8/M4 Carbine
style weapon. Soldiers were constantly interested in the C8 carbine due to its short length and lighter weight. Light Infantry soldiers are encumbered by an assortment of bulk and heavy items in addition to their personal weapons. The 3PPCLI AAR asks for the Diemaco 16â ? SFW to compensate issues with the C8's 14.5â ?bbl.
Velocity table a few of us did up in testing 20" 16" and 14.5" Barrels
for those unfamilair with the mechanisms of wounding for the C77/M855/SS109 projectivel please consult the AMMO-ORACLE
Sgt L. M. Gauley, CD's article in the Vol.6 No.1 Spring 2003 issue of the
Doctrine and Training Bulletin make clear the tasks that are required of
both Light Infantry (occasionally the need for Mechanized Infantry to
function as Light) and the skill sets, and equipment that are required for
those missions and that most of these mission in other armies would be farmed to
SOF's.
2) Modularity: The C7A1 Rifle's Picatinny type rail on the upper receiver (note the
Diemaco Rail spec is not a true M1913 Picatinny spec rail) is not long enough to
accommodate all of the required modular weapon system accessories of modern Armies
IR Laser/Illuminators, Visible Lights, NV systems, grenade and less lethal launcher
systems. To make effective use of these systems a modular weapons system is needed so
items can be added and subtracted as needed. The other users of plastic stock furniture
weapons (i.e. the US Army and USMC) have made several strides . Many allied rifle
and carbine upgrades call for an uninterrupted M1913 spec top rail.
C7A2
Observations
The midlife replacement project is making the C7/C8 a more versatile
option. Admitted there are currently deficiencies in the C7A1. Currently DLR has proposed the C7A2 to fulfill the deficiencies of the C7A1
Ambidextrous Magazine release;
Ambidextrous Fire Control Selector;
Diemaco Triad 1 (Light and Laser Adapter)
Green Furniture;
C79 Upgrade;Green C79 Sight Cover, replace Tritium Source (10year half life), and Retrofit 4 gen Side Spring
Accuwedge; and
C8 4 Position Telescopic butt
Recommendations
1. The C7A2 appears to be a start in the right direction but did not go far enough.
The weapon footprint was not fully addressed. While the idea of a telescoping
buttstock is desirable , the 4 position Diemaco stock is not a good representation
of the available choices in telescopic stocks.
· The US Military has adopted the newer Colt 6 position stock for use on
the M4A1 Carbines and other weapons that has a larger toe â “ providing
both better purchase on the stock from the shoulder, and diffusing the
recoil impulse to a greater degree.
· USSOCOM has adopted a number of Modular telescopic stocks, from the
Crane Enhanced M4 Stock, the VLTOR, and the Magpul M93 MSS.
· Other off the Shelf Manufactures are creating modular stocks with
multiple positions that provide even greater flexibility to the shooter (7+)
· Collapsible Stocks allow for the tailoring of the weapon to each
individual shooter to adjust to both stature and size, but also the
encumberment of equipment and combat clothing.
2. Barrel: With the shift in focus of the CF toward the close combat environment5 it
does not make sense to retain the 20â ? barrel of the C7. USSOCOM testing6 by
USNSWC Crane has shown the 18.25â ? bbl (Mk12 SPR) is the optimum bbl
length for accuracy and muzzle velocity; however the 16â ? midlength system is
the best overall combat length barrel for multipurpose roles occasioned by
Infantry and Special Operations Forces
More to follow
- Reaction score
- 21,607
- Points
- 1,260
I'll cut this short but.
One thing I have noted is the 14.5 and 16" C8 barrels are TOO long for usage inside some dwellings (this is not North America) and in vehicles of which the majority of ambushes now occur.
*The 10.3" or 11.5" bbl upper should be acquired for use in limited numbers so troops can effectively use the weapon in some environments.
* All troops should be equipped with a 16" C8SFW type upper w/ MWS rail usign a combination of magnified and CC Optics's
* the 7.62mm MRS should be fielded as quickly as possible
One thing I have noted is the 14.5 and 16" C8 barrels are TOO long for usage inside some dwellings (this is not North America) and in vehicles of which the majority of ambushes now occur.
*The 10.3" or 11.5" bbl upper should be acquired for use in limited numbers so troops can effectively use the weapon in some environments.
* All troops should be equipped with a 16" C8SFW type upper w/ MWS rail usign a combination of magnified and CC Optics's
* the 7.62mm MRS should be fielded as quickly as possible
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