Victoria is facing a public-safety crisis

[GR66]

The big problem I have with capital punishment is the system that determines it is not infallible. There are numerous cases where the system knew, 'beyond a reasonable doubt' that the offender was guilty, only to determine later that they were not. If the argued answer is to create a better system, good luck with that. It is a human-created system and we are not infallible. It's a little late to say oopsie.

Agree 100% with this. While I do feel that certainly the perpetrators of some crimes are definitely deserving of death as punishment I am not prepared to risk executing an innocent person by mistake. Our system is clearly not infallible and I'm not confident of where we can draw the line between being "sure" someone is guilty, being "really sure" someone is guilty and being "really, REALLY sure" someone is guilty.

If we start killing innocent people (even if we thought they were guilty) then does that make us much different than any other killers of innocent people?

 

[Good2Golf]

It should be a tool in the box and only rolled out on the rarest of occasions. Think Paul Bernardo and Karla Holmolka level evil.

FTFY

 

[mariomike]

The big problem I have with capital punishment is the system that determines it is not infallible. There are numerous cases where the system knew, 'beyond a reasonable doubt' that the offender was guilty, only to determine later that they were not. If the argued answer is to create a better system, good luck with that. It is a human-created system and we are not infallible. It's a little late to say oopsie.

I doubt there is a solution that is satisfactory to everyone.

If we execute murderers and there is in fact no deterrent effect, we have killed a bunch of murderers. If we fail to execute murderers, and doing so would in fact have deterred other murders, we have allowed the killing of a bunch of innocent victims. I would much rather risk the former. This, to me, is not a tough call.

John McAdams - Marquette University/Department of Political Science, on deterrence

 

[brihard]

Agree 100% with this. While I do feel that certainly the perpetrators of some crimes are definitely deserving of death as punishment I am not prepared to risk executing an innocent person by mistake. Our system is clearly not infallible and I'm not confident of where we can draw the line between being "sure" someone is guilty, being "really sure" someone is guilty and being "really, REALLY sure" someone is guilty.

This is precisely my position as well.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I think Capital Punishment should be on the books, but only for very rare cases and the burden of proof must be very high, plus I think for cases involving multiple victims and preferably with the suspect caught at the same time as the offence. Even if it only frees up a few cells and guards. I think that it will allow the prison system to focus more resources on the other inmates. We don't have an infinite supply of prisons or guards. On the other side of the coin, more resources directed at youth to keep them from becoming criminals and getting to a point where they are not in and out of detention.

 

[dapaterson]

US experience suggests that the death penalty is more expensive per capita than life in prison.

 

[Brad Sallows]

All this sentiment about having a death penalty with a higher standard of proof.

Please to state standard in non-subjective - preferably rigorously mathematically quantifiable - terms.

 

[GR66]

All this sentiment about having a death penalty with a higher standard of proof.

Please to state standard in non-subjective - preferably rigorously mathematically quantifiable - terms.

“I don't know. A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof, and when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven.”​

― Jean Chrétien

 

[brihard]

We already have “beyond a reasonable doubt” for bare criminal conviction, and we still get that wrong sometimes. What higher standard is both achievable AND fairly implementable?

I don’t even need to argue to economic costs aspect of capital punishment versus prison, because capital punishment already fails on the first test of the possibility of errorless implementation before even needing to argue whether it’s more economical.

 

[CBH99]

“I don't know. A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof, and when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven.”​

― Jean Chrétien

Exactly.

Pretty hard to argue with that logic...

 

[CBH99]

US experience suggests that the death penalty is more expensive per capita than life in prison.

...I know there's something in here I'm probably missing...

Life in prison = person gets out after sentence

Death sentence = person serves their time, but then added cost of the procedure at the end?

 

[mariomike]

Death sentence = person serves their time, but then added cost of the procedure at the end?

Plus legal fees?

From what I have read, some states are starting to go cheap on the last meals. Come on, Texas!

"Texas is the only state that does not honor any special requests from death row inmates."

Lethal injection is supposedly the new and improved method. But, reading reports of cases getting botched .

 

[dapaterson]

...I know there's something in here I'm probably missing...

Life in prison = person gets out after sentence

Death sentence = person serves their time, but then added cost of the procedure at the end?

Legal fees on appeals, primarily. Despite which there is credible evidence of factually innocent people being executed, in the name of "finality" from courts.

 

[Booter]

I’m drunk On a beach. It’s my anecdotal experience that we don’t need the death penalty- we need to do the penalties we have better.

When I was a young cowboy- the farmers saw me as their friend. They would arrest trespassers (at gunpoint) and thieves and they would call me and turn them over. Usually the suspect would be very excited to get into my custody and out of theirs. They didn’t say much. The suspects said less. And I nodded and took the person to jail. The system SEEMED to be reasonably functioning for everyone.

Now. I am not the farmers friend- they hate me. They are frustrated with the system- and they go farther than they used to, the suspect laughs the system off- and I am arresting the same people at the same farms more often.

On top of that- the farmers give me canned lines like “I feared for my life” rather than just honestly telling me what happened. The lawyer is now the friend.

I don’t know what the answer is but we are headed in an awkward way because we refuse to deal with crime in a satisfactory way- yes we need to do root causes. Address disparity. Create opportunity,

We ALSO have to support the everyday people who play by the rules because that is what allows society to function.

 

[Brad Sallows]

We ALSO have to support the everyday people who play by the rules because that is what allows society to function.

Which is why I so persistently whine here about politicians who in part sustain their popularity with their "base" by pissing off people whose votes they never expect to have.

 

[QV]

I’m drunk On a beach. It’s my anecdotal experience that we don’t need the death penalty- we need to do the penalties we have better.

When I was a young cowboy- the farmers saw me as their friend. They would arrest trespassers (at gunpoint) and thieves and they would call me and turn them over. Usually the suspect would be very excited to get into my custody and out of theirs. They didn’t say much. The suspects said less. And I nodded and took the person to jail. The system SEEMED to be reasonably functioning for everyone.

Now. I am not the farmers friend- they hate me. They are frustrated with the system- and they go farther than they used to, the suspect laughs the system off- and I am arresting the same people at the same farms more often.

On top of that- the farmers give me canned lines like “I feared for my life” rather than just honestly telling me what happened. The lawyer is now the friend.

I don’t know what the answer is but we are headed in an awkward way because we refuse to deal with crime in a satisfactory way- yes we need to do root causes. Address disparity. Create opportunity,

We ALSO have to support the everyday people who play by the rules because that is what allows society to function.

I'm sure there are a plethora of reasons why it has gotten this way. It's a shame but expected. Expect it to get worse.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

US experience suggests that the death penalty is more expensive per capita than life in prison.

Maybe, but how do you measure that? Also where are the guards coming from? Someone that killed multiple people and is in jail for life and no parole, they are a constant threat to the guards and people they come in contact with. Do we include the cost of PTSD that the guards have, of disability insurance costs?

 

[lenaitch]

I think Capital Punishment should be on the books, but only for very rare cases and the burden of proof must be very high, plus I think for cases involving multiple victims and preferably with the suspect caught at the same time as the offence. Even if it only frees up a few cells and guards. I think that it will allow the prison system to focus more resources on the other inmates. We don't have an infinite supply of prisons or guards. On the other side of the coin, more resources directed at youth to keep them from becoming criminals and getting to a point where they are not in and out of detention.

I hear that argument and, although I don't agree, I get where it's coming from, but, as mentioned, what higher burden of prove than we have now? At the end of the day, it is still people who hear the evidence and make a judgement against said higher standard. Even before that, if it is somehow reserved for a certain level of criminal, how and who would make that determination to send it down that legal path?

In terms of the economic argument, if we are talking the heinous of the heinous, the money saved for the handful of prisoners would be a rounding error of the CSC budget. Quite frankly, I'm quite happy to pay my share of the price to have the likes of Bernardo or Williams spend day after day staring at a wall and being alone with their thoughts for many, many years.

 

[OldSolduer]

Maybe, but how do you measure that? Also where are the guards coming from? Someone that killed multiple people and is in jail for life and no parole, they are a constant threat to the guards and people they come in contact with. Do we include the cost of PTSD that the guards have, of disability insurance costs?

Generally speaking murderers are much easier to handle than garden variety criminals. We have had serial killers here and I have never heard of any serious threats against Corrections staff.
The worst ones are high profile inmates like Uncle Peter N - who use their notoriety to gain special privileges. And the threat of lawsuits works - and let's not forget the influence of the JHS who never met an inmate they didn't love.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Generally speaking murderers are much easier to handle than garden variety criminals. We have had serial killers here and I have never heard of any serious threats against Corrections staff.
The worst ones are high profile inmates like Uncle Peter N - who use their notoriety to gain special privileges. And the threat of lawsuits works - and let's not forget the influence of the JHS who never met an inmate they didn't love.

When my dad was wrapping up his career at Millhaven he told me that the worst were the jihadis, and they would convert large portions population of inmates.