We’ve given up on Canada’s military, so let’s abandon it altogether

[pbi]

In the 1990s, the CAF was downsizing and had a choice.  Which is a more important capability to keep in uniform: musicians or fitness instructors?

And the senior leaders of the day made their choice.

But to be fair here, most of the CF bands disappeared. We lost a very fine PPCLI band which we were quite proud of.  A bit of creative thinking might have given them a secondary role to keep them on the ORBAT. (No...CF Musician Branch members were NOT stretcher bearers-that was an old legend-but maybe they could have been given something similar)

Physical fitness in most field units was led by the chain of command, not PERIs anyway, so that wasn't much of a loss.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Epic, using your logic, all men can beat all women in every test of strength and endurance. So, can you beat the women's 100m dash world champion? Can you out press a women Olympic weightlifter? I would like to hear your answers.

How about dealing with the 'average man' and the 'average woman'...those are often the people who walk into recruiting centers, not world champion athletes.

I spent time in the combat arms, I've taught on reg and res BMQs, QL3s to CLC/PLQ whatever it is called now.  On average, the female candidates were less able to maintain physical effectiveness (march at a set pace, with a standard load, etc) than the male ones.  No fancy studies and papers, just observations of reality where the rubber meets the road.  Guess how many females ran in the 'fast' group in my platoon in Cornwallis in '89? 

None.  Not one of the 12 or so females in my platoon ever pushed themselves or had the ability to keep up to the fast group.  That is the reality in using the 'average' woman rather than world champion athletes, because not many female world champion Canadian athletes are interesting in hasty defences, fighting withdrawls, month long FTXs and other realities of army life.

:2c:

 

[Piece of Cake]

In the 1990s, the CAF was downsizing and had a choice.  Which is a more important capability to keep in uniform: musicians or fitness instructors?

And the senior leaders of the day made their choice.

I had a similar conversation with a PSO several years ago.  It was an interesting conversation to say the least.

 

[Piece of Cake]

How about dealing with the 'average man' and the 'average woman'...those are often the people who walk into recruiting centers, not world champion athletes.

I spent time in the combat arms, I've taught on reg and res BMQs, QL3s to CLC/PLQ whatever it is called now.  On average, the female candidates were less able to maintain physical effectiveness (march at a set pace, with a standard load, etc) than the male ones.  No fancy studies and papers, just observations of reality where the rubber meats the road.  Guess how many females ran in the 'fast' group in my platoon in Cornwallis in '89? 

None.  Not one of the 12 or so females in my platoon ever pushed themselves or had the ability to keep up to the fast group.  That is the reality in using the 'average' woman rather than world champion athletes, because not many female world champion Canadian athletes are interesting in hasty defences, fighting withdrawls, month long FTXs and other realities of army life.

:2c:

I will simply state what has already been said.  Let's change our recruitment to target the right people.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

While asking around about the FORCE test I'm told there is an experiment going on.
An all female course ran by an all female staff and male staff are not allowed to speak to them.

The USMC does (or did) do this in recruit training.  Not sure when it started, why it started etc but I've seen a few videos about it in the past.

 

[Remius]

I had a similar conversation with a PSO several years ago.  It was an interesting conversation to say the least.

I'm sure it was but it was likely factually wrong.

As mentioned most CAF bands and many reserve bands disappeared or became association/civilian member bands.

And I believe that Fitness instructors were replaced by civilians.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I will simply state what has already been said.  Let's change our recruitment to target the right people.

I'm not convinced we aren't targeting the right people now, or that the average woman (or man) grows up wanting to dig trenches, fight fires and do DC on ships or jump out of planes.

Maybe...maybe...we don't have 25% of the CAF strength from females because not that many Canadian females want to grind out the life of an infanteer, or sailor, or bounce around the back of an aircraft that might be older than their parents are.

They want to be teachers, own a flower shop, or be world class athletes or something.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I'm not convinced we aren't targeting the right people now, or that the average woman (or man) grows up wanting to dig trenches, fight fires and do DC on ships or jump out of planes.

Maybe...maybe...we don't have 25% of the CAF strength from females because not that many Canadian females want to grind out the life of an infanteer, or sailor, or bounce around the back of a an aircraft that might be older than their parents are.

They want to be teachers, own a flower shop, or be world class athletes or something.

Have a conventional life.

 

[Kat Stevens]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxT0BDrPVl4

Now make it twice as long, in the dark on an unprepared site, raining sideways, or snowing if you're really lucky. Panels up, ladies!

 

[Jarnhamar]

The USMC does (or did) do this in recruit training.  Not sure when it started, why it started etc but I've seen a few videos about it in the past.

Good article from the MarineCorpsTimes about the gender divided boot camp.
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2015/08/03/the-boot-camp-gender-divide-the-case-for-co-ed-training/

 

[Piece of Cake]

I'm sure it was but it was likely factually wrong

More than likely.

As mentioned most CAF bands and many reserve bands disappeared or became association/civilian member bands.

Please show me where this was mentioned.

And I believe that Fitness instructors were replaced by civilians.

What's your point?

Now enjoy this picture of a dinosaur.



Retracted

 

[Remius]

More than likely.

Please show me where this was mentioned.

What's your point?

Now enjoy this picture of a dinosaur.

Pbi mentioned it in post #160.

I was adding that as part of the discussion on getting rid of fitness instructor.

As for your dinosaur pic I’m guessing it wasn’t to elevate the tone or maintain a professional bearing in the discussion.  Sorry you felt insulted somehow by what I said that you decided to do that.  Feel free to explain that to me if I was wrong. 

 

[Piece of Cake]

I happen to agree with the direction the CAF is going.  It is clear from the replies on this forum not everyone is.  The CAF like every organization needs to evolve.  Name calling by those who are unhappy with change are counterproductive to the mission and values of the CAF.

 

[Remius]

OK, you’ve lost me now.  Who called you any names?  And I agree with you, sadly your dinosaur pic comment seems to indicate otherwise.

I suggest you go back and read the post I've written about women in the CAF, targeted recruiting etc etc in this thread.

Not sure what has you triggered but I’m willing to hear specifics if you can explain a bit better.  I still don’t know what my comment on bands and fitness instructors merited setting you off.

 

[Piece of Cake]

I was never upset. 

The dinosaur pic was not the best idea.  As such, it has been retracted.

 

[OldSolduer]

I happen to agree with the direction the CAF is going.  It is clear from the replies on this forum not everyone is.  The CAF like every organization needs to evolve.  Name calling by those who are unhappy with change are counterproductive to the mission and values of the CAF.

I agree that the CAF needs to evolve with this caveat:

As long as the members are merit selected, and the principles of good leadership are followed the CAF will have few issues it can’t handle.

Sadly as we have seen in the past, the selection by merit principle and the Principles of Leadership have been neglected.

 

[mariomike]

Adding for reference to the discussion,

Canadian Forces Employment Equity Regulations
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2002-421/page-1.html#wb-cont

Date modified:  2018-02-08

 

[Jarnhamar]

I was never upset. 

The dinosaur pic was not the best idea.  As such, it has been retracted.

Ya pretty lame and unoriginal.  Besides our civilization is built on the bodies of and powered by dinosaurs, have some respect.

The direction the CAF is heading  IS mostly good. But it's easy to go off course (like our ridiculous HQ bloat).

Given our current government's behavior and climate it's not beyond the realm of possibility to expect safe spaces on training bases.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Ya pretty lame and unoriginal.  Besides our civilization is built on the bodies of and powered by dinosaurs, have some respect.

The direction the CAF is heading  IS mostly good. But it's easy to go off course (like our ridiculous HQ bloat).

Given our current government's behavior and climate it's not beyond the realm of possibility to expect safe spaces on training bases.

This is my safe space, especially with a battery in DS

 

[Jarnhamar]

This is my safe space, especially with a battery in DS

Touche.

Plus that's great example of how new ideas (getting rid of the .50) aren't always the right ideas. And now that they're out of the system generally and much of the knowledge base gone, we're bringing them back.