W
Wolf671
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A Canadian soldier must be able to stand up to the worst possible treatment, take it with a smile and ask, "Please Sir, may I have some more".
What is a Canadian Soldier?
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Wolf, that may be true in some cases, but not in all. Soldiers most be able to tell the difference between right and wrong. You can't always expect to be treated nicely, I mean you are going to get yelled at, and crapped on, but you have no no when you are being treated unfair. Some treatment is wrong.
KaT
KaT
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As Sgt. Villager of 1PPCLI made abundantly clear to us Militia Jr. NCO Course types on the parade square of Calgary's Sarcee Barracks during the summer of 1972:
Nobody challenged that statement then and I defy anybody to challenge it now
.
:warstory:
Nobody challenged that statement then and I defy anybody to challenge it now
.
Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
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Shec said:As Sgt. Villager of 1PPCLI made abundantly clear to us Militia Jr. NCO Course types on the parade square of Calgary's Sarcee Barracks during the summer of 1972:
:warstory:
Nobody challenged that statement then and I defy anybody to challenge it now
I challenge it - must have been back when you wore the bus driver suits with the really cute silk ascots. And the sideburns. I would suggest squarebashing is not something Canadian soldiers have been particularly good at, except when important ceremonial parades come up. I saw some newsreel footage of my own regiment on parade circa 1943....God awful. Of course, they were working their asses off with Battle Drill, assault courses, and the like, preparing to fight for their lives against one of the best armies in human history.
Check out the pictures of Patricias at Buckingham Palace when they did public duties a few years ago - in particular the way no one seemed to know how to wear a beret properly. I don't doubt their drill was excellent, I am sure, however, those regular soldiers had done enough "real soldiering" to not really care to be known as "beautiful" on parade. Don't take my word for it, check out the letters section of Military Modelling out of the UK, who did a nice piece on the Patricias and their uniforms, and some of the Canadians who wrote in to comment on the hats.
Not to try and trash Patricias or anyone, for that matter, but superb drill has not been something closely associated with Canadian troops, certainly not in the same manner of the British Guards, for example. Can't speak for the Regulars but I am pretty certain most Reserve units don't do enough of it,through no fault of their own.
Not sure what "beauty" is meant to mean - if not drill, certainly not the CF Green uniform you wore in 1972?
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3 points in response Michael:
1. The operative phrase in the sentence is The Canadian soldier is the finest in the world. As far as drill goes I was certainly no "creature of beauty", I wasn't the only one.
Which is why the same Sgt. also "diplomatically" advised us that
2. CF Greens/work dress for the Militia in 1972? HA! The Regs had, the reserves were still in Battledress or Bush. We were authorized Combats but not yet issued them so you either bought your own or played silly bugger in issue black coveralls and 51 pattern webbing.
3. Sideburns - yes, until we got to Sarcee. Then they trucked us to Curry for a brushcut. The WO in charge of that operation told us " the problem with long hair is that you have to cop a feel to find out who is what". :
BTW, General Lew was then Major MacKenzie and it was his company that ran what was then called the Prairie Region Combat Leader Course. 600 started, 300 were RTUed. Those of us who graduated really thought we were gung-ho.
Boy, am I aging myself.
1. The operative phrase in the sentence is The Canadian soldier is the finest in the world. As far as drill goes I was certainly no "creature of beauty", I wasn't the only one.
Which is why the same Sgt. also "diplomatically" advised us that
. ;D
2. CF Greens/work dress for the Militia in 1972? HA! The Regs had, the reserves were still in Battledress or Bush. We were authorized Combats but not yet issued them so you either bought your own or played silly bugger in issue black coveralls and 51 pattern webbing.
3. Sideburns - yes, until we got to Sarcee. Then they trucked us to Curry for a brushcut. The WO in charge of that operation told us " the problem with long hair is that you have to cop a feel to find out who is what". :
BTW, General Lew was then Major MacKenzie and it was his company that ran what was then called the Prairie Region Combat Leader Course. 600 started, 300 were RTUed. Those of us who graduated really thought we were gung-ho.
Boy, am I aging myself.
Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
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Shec said:
Well, I'm pretty sure every army tells its men that; I'd be worried if they didn't.
As far as rock-steadiness in drill, see my previous comments. We had a nice photo in our orderly room with a poem whose name and author escapes me - it said something to the effect that the author, if left to run the country, would have two armies - one for dress parades with shiny medals and gold trim, and another one of men whose job was to fight and sacrifice. Seems he felt the two were mutually exclusive, and most armies would agree. Canada - even the Germans - banned ceremonial dress "for the duration" of the last world war; the Germans even stopped teaching drill by 1944 and in 1939 stopped the practice of parade-marching ("goosestepping") and even of the movements shoulder arms and present arms.
You think your Militia unit in 1972 represented the "finest in the world"? I am quite satisfied a similarly sized unit of the North Vietnamese Army would have been delighted to take you and your comrades on.
They were well on their way to finishing a thirty-year war of national survival and by 1975 would have embarked on the full scale invasion and occupation of the RVN. The only thing that might have been in your favour were the black coveralls - eerily similar to the "black pajamas" worn by the NVA's former allies, the Viet Cong, before the destruction of same in 1968. If nothing else, you could have confused "Old Charlie" with your bizarre clothing. All you would need was the conical hats and the sandals made from truck tyres.
I had rather feared this thread would go from bare jingoism to even worse, guess I shouldn't be disappointed about not being disappointed.
For the record, the Canadian soldier has rarely been the best trained in the world, nor the best equipped nor belonged to the largest army, yet he has consistently proven himself the equal of other soldiers who have been the best trained and best equipped, and on many occasions been able to exceed them.
Unfortunately, his ability to do that has created the "Militia myth" - no doubt Shec believes in this now, and probably did in 1972 - which would have us believe that Canadians are somehow "natural fighters" who need no formal training or modern equipment, just a stout heart and a chance to show his stuff. One would have hoped Second Ypres showed the folly of this, but, again, we were unlucky enough to have won that one, too.
It is Canadian tradition to define ourselves not but what we are, but by what we are not. We are not Americans, we are not British, we are not the best, we are not the worst. We are simply Canadians, and because we are Canadians, we are proud. We don't know why. We like ourselves, but to boast about ourselves just looks silly in print. We are definitely a strange bunch.
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Oooucchhhhhh. Twist it deeper. Whatever happened to our self-deprecating sense of humour?
Seriously though I agree with your... two armies - one for dress parades with shiny medals and gold trim, and another one of men whose job was to fight and sacrifice. Seems he felt the two were mutually exclusive, and most armies would agree. For example, the IDF tags the "creatures of beauty on the parade square" "chocolate soldiers."
Seriously though I agree with your... two armies - one for dress parades with shiny medals and gold trim, and another one of men whose job was to fight and sacrifice. Seems he felt the two were mutually exclusive, and most armies would agree. For example, the IDF tags the "creatures of beauty on the parade square" "chocolate soldiers."
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A lot of what Kipling said over a hundred years ago certainly could be applied to a definition of a Canadian solidier today:
Tommy
I WENT into a public 'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, " We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, go away " ;
But it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, wait outside ";
But it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap.
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Chuck him out, the brute! "
But it's " Saviour of 'is country " when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An 'Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!
Tommy
I WENT into a public 'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, " We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, go away " ;
But it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, wait outside ";
But it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap.
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Chuck him out, the brute! "
But it's " Saviour of 'is country " when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An 'Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!
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Michael, when my shoulders get better or when I can get this dictation program to work I'll get back to you. Right now I am not able to type for a sustained period.
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He's sworn an oath to Queen Elizabeth II
Sworn an oath to Queen Elizabeth II??? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I swore an oath to God.............not to the Queen. I joined because I am Canadian and respect and want to honour Canadian Values. Not for the Queen.
CHIMO!!!!!!!!!!
Sworn an oath to Queen Elizabeth II??? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I swore an oath to God.............not to the Queen. I joined because I am Canadian and respect and want to honour Canadian Values. Not for the Queen.
CHIMO!!!!!!!!!!
B
bgreen
Guest
I believe every CF members swears an Oath of Allegiance to Canada's Queen. I believe the part that you may have forgotten is " I swear that I will bear true and faithful allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second her heirs and successors acording to law so help me God. I am doing this from memory many years ago but I think this is close.
Does this ring a bell?
BG
Does this ring a bell?
BG
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This is my first post since joining this forum so please bear with me. I retired in 1998 after 25 years, 172 days and a wakey (who's counting). I don't consider myself as any better or worse than any other Canadian soldier but there were a few close calls over the years that taught me what it was for me to be a Canadian Soldier.
A Canadian Soldier trains hard and often has to use imagination to compensate for lack of equipment. This makes him resourceful and an independant thinker.
A Canadian Soldier considers his fellow soldiers as a gift from God that must be trusted and depended on. This makes him uncompromisingly faithful and demanding at the same time.
A Canadian Soldier knows that true leadership in this outfit is a commodity that can be in short supply. This means flexibility must be used to compensate for poor leadership and compliment the good.
A Canadian Soldier is patriotic and proud of what he represents but humble enough to let his actions do the talking.
A Canadian Soldier is confident that his training and fellow soldiers will give him a fighting chance in any fix he's liable to find himself in but is realistic and sensible enough to pick his battles.
A Canadian Soldier carries the thought in the back of his mind that someday, in some far place, at a time not necissarily of his choosing; he will have to put in practice all he has learned and silently prays a little every day that it never comes.
Oaths, badges, terms of service, pensions and so on are administrative matters. Important to be sure, but not what soldering is about.
Just a retired guy's perspective. Like I said, bear with me.
Peter
A Canadian Soldier trains hard and often has to use imagination to compensate for lack of equipment. This makes him resourceful and an independant thinker.
A Canadian Soldier considers his fellow soldiers as a gift from God that must be trusted and depended on. This makes him uncompromisingly faithful and demanding at the same time.
A Canadian Soldier knows that true leadership in this outfit is a commodity that can be in short supply. This means flexibility must be used to compensate for poor leadership and compliment the good.
A Canadian Soldier is patriotic and proud of what he represents but humble enough to let his actions do the talking.
A Canadian Soldier is confident that his training and fellow soldiers will give him a fighting chance in any fix he's liable to find himself in but is realistic and sensible enough to pick his battles.
A Canadian Soldier carries the thought in the back of his mind that someday, in some far place, at a time not necissarily of his choosing; he will have to put in practice all he has learned and silently prays a little every day that it never comes.
Oaths, badges, terms of service, pensions and so on are administrative matters. Important to be sure, but not what soldering is about.
Just a retired guy's perspective. Like I said, bear with me.
Peter
V
Veterans son
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PeterLT said:
Thank you for the excellent post!
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Being a soldier in the Canadian army to me just means being the best god damned soldier on the planet!
