"Why I preferred the Navy, from a culture POV."

[Lumber]

All for a ‘modern’ navy. From the sounds of it, all that isn’t working out too well.

Life in the navy was hard, but it was fun and full Of adventure.

Now it's a lot harder, and a lot less fun.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I agree most people didn’t drink at sea, we were all pretty responsible in regards to it. It did have a significant effect on us drinking in foreign ports and parties on the ship as it significantly changed the prices from a dollar a shot or beer to whatever it is now.

The same time they did it they chose to restrict us all to two drinks a day in foreign port, which I hope has been removed.

It might not be important to you, but to many of us it was. Considering it wasn’t being abused and we weren’t having issues related to it, it was a political statement disguised as being something good for us. I put my release in from the Navy a week after that decision, no regrets on that part and one of the best decisions of my life.

That meeting in the hanger is one I will never forget, I have never heard a group of two hundred people so silent, you could physically feel the anger.

All for a ‘modern’ navy. From the sounds of it, all that isn’t working out too well.

In my career I've visibly seen morale drop once. When the CO came on and informed the ships company that we were being ordered to sea as a hurricane was going to hit Halifax. You could see a happy hard charging ships company instantly go to dejected and worried.

There is something ironic about being sent to sea to be saved as a usable force in response to the emergency but you aren't able to stay behind and look after your own family in that same emergency. I can see the Military logic and it's callous and efficient.

Anyways as for drinking, I was never a big drinker at sea. But that probably came from me figuring out how to tame my seasickness and not wanting to fix what's not broken.

But in a foreign port, the short period of very restrictive rules just lead to Sailors not looking out for eachother and putting themselves in dangerous situations.

If I sailor can't be a sailor in a foreign port then you won't get many sailors in your ranks.

 

[Underway]

Lots of people were also cheering on the sidelines as that man had a strong hand in killing naval tradition (taking drinking off the ships) and was also one of those who if sailing in the modern fleet would have been responsible for many releases.

Knocking off drinking at sea was the smartest thing the RCN ever did. Bar is still open when you're alongside during bar hours, which is completely fine as well.

 

[TacticalTea]

Knocking off drinking at sea was the smartest thing the RCN ever did.

Pretty damning indictment if THAT is what tops it all.

 

[Underway]

Pretty damning indictment if THAT is what tops it all.

Pretty damning that we were alcoholics and problem drinkers for so long and ignored it (or encouraged that behaviour at least). Used to be the best officer was the one who could drink super hard and still do their watch super hungover the next day. Because that's what sailors did. Same thing for everyone else onboard. Drinking in engineering spaces, beer machine etc...

Not very safe nor professional.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Not very safe nor professional.

But I thought that was all part of the 'tradition' thing?

 

[Underway]

But I thought that was all part of the 'tradition' thing?

So my C&P is part of the tradition?? Lol

 

[daftandbarmy]

So my C&P is part of the tradition?? Lol

 

[Halifax Tar]

So my C&P is part of the tradition?? Lol

Well no good story started with, "So there I was having this salad and mineral water..."

 

[btrudy]

But I thought that was all part of the 'tradition' thing?

Tradition is just peer pressure from dead people, and also apparently alcoholics.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Pretty damning that we were alcoholics and problem drinkers for so long and ignored it (or encouraged that behaviour at least). Used to be the best officer was the one who could drink super hard and still do their watch super hungover the next day. Because that's what sailors did. Same thing for everyone else onboard. Drinking in engineering spaces, beer machine etc...

Not very safe nor professional.

Still got the job done safely and effectively. Can’t say the same for the modern excuse of a fleet.

It was safe and professional because it was managed. Its not like we let people run wild and go crazy. Who cares if your drinking a beer and fixing the generator which you have been working at for 16 hours straight because we need it running? Your not drunk, your working steady, and your still being effective.

It was institutional weakness which got rid of drinking at sea, because of a CoC which didn’t have the balls to say this isn’t the problem, the problem is how people are acting along side. All to make some headlines to pretend they fixed the problem.

 

[dimsum]

Still got the job done safely and effectively.

Given how easy it was to sweep "mistakes" under the rug back then compared to now (and I'm saying this, fully understanding it's still easy to sweep issues under the rug), I'm willing to bet that the job wasn't done as safely/effectively as people thought.

 

[FSTO]

I'm willing to bet that the job wasn't done as safely/effectively as people thought

I dunno, launching and recovering the whaler was a very dangerous operation. There was a plethora of points in the evolution that EVERYTHING could go south and people would die.
But yes, the booze was an issue, in Fraser we had a CC that couldn’t function until he put down a mickey of whiskey. The poor clerks in his office were likely alcoholics just from booze emanating from his pores!
Some ship’s Department’s were run by killicks and Master Killicks because the PO’s were hammered in 3 Mess.

But banning booze at sea hasn’t solved the alcohol/ drug abuse ashore.

 

[dimsum]

I dunno, launching and recovering the whaler was a very dangerous operation. There was a plethora of points in the evolution that EVERYTHING could go south and people would die.

Sure, but I'm suggesting that @Eaglelord17 may have been viewing the "good old days" with rose-coloured glasses.

But yes, the booze was an issue, in Fraser we had a CC that couldn’t function until he put down a mickey of whiskey. The poor clerks in his office were likely alcoholics just from booze emanating from his pores!
Some ship’s Department’s were run by killicks and Master Killicks because the PO’s were hammered in 3 Mess.

Yeah, that's not on - especially if there happens to be an emergency. You don't want a bunch of drunk folks trying (and likely failing) to do Damage Control

But banning booze at sea hasn’t solved the alcohol/ drug abuse ashore.

Given that many (most?) folks are on a watch system and you need to be 8 hours post-drinking to work, how many people would that really apply to at sea?

 

[FSTO]

Given that many (most?) folks are on a watch system and you need to be 8 hours post-drinking to work, how many people would that really apply to at sea?

Just the day workers. In the wardroom the SYO and EO would have a glass of wine at supper. Also those stories are from the days prior to the new frigates and I saw a huge change of attitudes when we had ships with modern capabilities.
I guess my issue is that I’m an adult, I can control myself, and I don’t need bannings to control things. We have rules, enforce the bloody things, and hammer the offenders.

 

[SupersonicMax]

100% I'm glad to hear it from the users, because fighting that has been a losing battle from the inside.

That said, the RCAF abandoned us before the JMC was a thing. The entire reason the JMC happened is because the RCAF decided somewhere between the air crews and 1 CAD that a website was better than a SME.

Like I've said before on here, I've had aircrew walk past my staffed briefing desk at 4 am(when my staff had come in specifically to brief) because they checked Nav Canada before coming to work.

Nothing makes your 18 years of training and experience feel more worthwhile than a crew looking in, seeing you there ready to brief, then walking past as if you don't exist.

To be fair, I find Met not to be too useful when operating in locations where there is a well establish commercial (or US military) Met presence that can be accessed. As aircrew, we are trained to interpret weather products - probably not to the same level as a met tech - but certainly good enough for what we need to do and decide what we need to do operationally (alternate airports, routes, etc). In those cases, I would much rather take 5 mins to read the readily available weather products and shape my plan than sit through a 15 min weather brief that may of may not give me what I need and then sit down and re-read the weather to make my plan.

Where Met is really useful is when we operate at or above locations where those products do NOT exist.

 

[Lumber]

To be fair, I find Met not to be too useful when operating in locations where there is a well establish commercial (or US military) Met presence that can be accessed. As aircrew, we are trained to interpret weather products - probably not to the same level as a met tech - but certainly good enough for what we need to do and decide what we need to do operationally (alternate airports, routes, etc). In those cases, I would much rather take 5 mins to read the readily available weather products and shape my plan than sit through a 15 min weather brief that may of may not give me what I need and then sit down and re-read the weather to make my plan.

Where Met is really useful is when we operate at or above locations where those products do NOT exist.

#windyftw

Also, in those circumstances alluded in your last paragraph, your mileage may vary wrt how well your met tech can actually do that for you.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Just the day workers. In the wardroom the SYO and EO would have a glass of wine at supper. Also those stories are from the days prior to the new frigates and I saw a huge change of attitudes when we had ships with modern capabilities.
I guess my issue is that I’m an adult, I can control myself, and I don’t need bannings to control things. We have rules, enforce the bloody things, and hammer the offenders.

If people had proven to be able to control themselves and stick to the glass of wine with dinner then I don't think it would be an issue.

But I also remember getting woken at night as the duty storesman to write an IOR and finding my PO2 in the stores office passed out drunk and pouring beer all over the deck. I had to go wake my MS and we had to quietly get him to his rack.

That was on anti piracy patrols when TOR circumnavigated Africa. He would have been in no shape to contribute to the ship if something went down.

 

[Lumber]

If people had proven to be able to control themselves and stick to the glass of wine with dinner then I don't think it would be an issue.

But I also remember getting woken at night as the duty storesman to write an IOR and finding my PO2 in the stores office passed out drunk and pouring beer all over the deck. I had to go wake my MS and we had to quietly get him to his rack.

That was on anti piracy patrols when TOR circumnavigated Africa. He would have been in no shape to contribute to the ship if something went down.

2009 with... Cdr Graham as CO?

 

[Halifax Tar]

2009 with... Cdr Graham as CO?

Nope earlier than that. It was the CAFs initial foray into Anti Piracy. We circumnavigated the continent of Africa. If you look up HMCS Toronto and Red Sea volcano you will find some stuff about that trip.

Patrolling all sides, with 2 port of calls. 1 in Cape Town and the other the Seychelles.