Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]

[Remius]

The Gov found no issue laying charges. Start with those people, they must be some form of leadership.

Not how it works. They met with the legit reps for the Truckers. A break off group didn’t like the end result and exercised their right to protest. It got taken over by bad actors. Again, let me know who that leadership was.

So the PM should have met with the convoy before it became unlawful ?

Nope.

I support anyone's right to protest. What I don't support is a protest that calls for genocide.

Sure. Then you can see the apt correlation that Brihard made. Those protesting should be free to do so and the bad apples dealt with. You don’t agree with what they are protesting because you assume that all those cease fire protests are about genocide. Lots of people believed the convoy was a racist group that was about removing the elected government. All I see is two sides of the coin in those arguments. Absolutism in one’s position. It isn’t black and white. If they cross lines they should be dealt with. Hate speech included.

I'm not sure what your these people thing is about.

Ok then.

 

[brihard]

Peaceful protest is a facet of our society and I am ok with it.

Absolutely, and peaceful protests happen constantly and they’re fine. What happened in Ottawa stopped being a ‘peaceful protest’ as soon as they criminally obstructed use of the downtown core for a sustained period, which was nearly immediate. A lack of immediate physical and forceful enforcement does not mean that what is happening is ‘peaceful’.

All protest is an attempt to push policy. It’s a display that a group of people feel aggrieved and want that fixed.

Certainly. You’re entitled to assemble and to express yourself within reasonable limits. That doesn’t mean you’re entitled to the specific audience or photo op that you want out of it.

It’s up to Police and Gov to maintain good order and discipline. And if you can solve something by talking without the drama or violence that should be way to go. The Police shouldn't be used to push people out until it’s a last resort.

Police action was very much a last resort, one that should have come weeks earlier. The people we finally pushed out of there would not have turned and left had Pat King or Tamara Lich or Chris Barber or any of them gotten a sit down with the PM. That was in no way what they were demanding or expecting. They made that clear while they were still on the road, and with actions and half-baked proclamations throughout.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Peaceful protest is a facet of our society and I am ok with it.

In my mind there's a clear line between peaceful lawful protest and thinly veiled extortion/coercion- and that line comes with a clear articulation or demonstration that the protest is not merely an expression of discontent/solidarity but instead a deliberate attempt to use obstruction or another method of causing economic or societal harm to the citizenry and not stop until the government gives in.

"Operation Bearhug" was very clearly the latter, with the former happening simultaneously on the first couple Saturdays

 

[Halifax Tar]

Absolutely, and peaceful protests happen constantly and they’re fine. What happened in Ottawa stopped being a ‘peaceful protest’ as soon as they criminally obstructed use of the downtown core for a sustained period, which was nearly immediate. A lack of immediate physical and forceful enforcement does not mean that what is happening is ‘peaceful’.

All I know is what I saw on the news, you were there. So I will default to your experience.

Certainly. You’re entitled to assemble and to express yourself within reasonable limits. That doesn’t mean you’re entitled to the specific audience or photo op that you want out of it.

That's a choice the requested audience has to, and did, make.

Police action was very much a last resort, one that should have come weeks earlier. The people we finally pushed out of there would not have turned and left had Pat King or Tamara Lich or Chris Barber or any of them gotten a sit down with the PM. That was in no way what they were demanding or expecting. They made that clear while they were still on the road, and with actions and half-baked proclamations throughout.

Ok.

 

[Halifax Tar]

In my mind there's a clear line between peaceful lawful protest and thinly veiled extortion/coercion- and that line comes with a clear articulation or demonstration that the protest is not merely an expression of discontent/solidarity but instead a deliberate attempt to use obstruction or another method of causing economic or societal harm to the citizenry and not stop until the government gives in.

"Operation Bearhug" was very clearly the latter, with the former happening simultaneously on the first couple Saturdays

No doubt. It is a very thin line. Peaceful and lawful protest must be protected, not prosecuted.

I am of the opinion JT, incorrectly, saw this as his Jan 6th insurrection moment, I go so for as to imagine he would have preferred it become something more than it did, so he could really levy out the punitive action he enjoys taking against his political opponents. And it could have all been diffused with conversation instead of the antagonization and name calling, that happened on both sides.

 

[brihard]

Not how it works. They met with the legit reps for the Truckers. A break off group didn’t like the end result and exercised their right to protest. It got taken over by bad actors. Again, let me know who that leadership was.

Great point that gets overlooked. There was no shortage of consultation and “being heard” between government and representative industry organizations for the transportation industry. The groups that assembled in Ottawa purporting to represent truckers, didn’t.

 

[mariomike]

I lived a block from the Convoy, so I like to think I have a bit of personal experience with those 3 weeks.

To quote Luke Skywalker: “Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.”

@brihard pretty much said what I wanted to say in nicer words, but what was happening in downtown Ottawa was worse than what was reported in most media. No one reported on the rampant drinking during the day, leading to cars speeding (as much as they could in the Ottawa winter) down the wrong way at night on one-way streets, ignoring stop signs and street lights.

Update on the class-action lawsuit,

Published Jan 25, 2024

Federal Court's Emergencies Act ruling will 'affirm' claims in proposed class-action lawsuit, lawyer says

A civil lawsuit remains pending against participants of the 2022 convoy protest.

ottawacitizen.com

From the front-line,

"Friendliest" protest is also farcical. They were not friendly. They were jubilant when they were getting their way. As soon as any enforcement actions were taken or hinted at, that changed. There were police surrounded and swarmed well before the final clearance operation. But when push literally came to shove, they were very, very far from friendly.

 

[QV]

Bottom line is if you are blue collar Canadians protesting the Trudeau government you will get treated differently than Antifa or BLM protesters.

 

[Winds]

Great point that gets overlooked. There was no shortage of consultation and “being heard” between government and representative industry organizations for the transportation industry. The groups that assembled in Ottawa purporting to represent truckers, didn’t.

I don't think the groups that assembled in Ottawa purported to represent the trucking industry, rather they represented the begrieved minority that had been forced out of their jobs and secluded from the rest of society as a result of the federal governments vaccine mandates. The begrieved truckers were used a representative symbol, the most recent industry to face such a mandate... More like the straw that broke the camels back.

Are you trying to suggest the government consulting with the trucking industry is the same as the government acknowledging the grievances of the protestors? That's like saying the government consulting with a large employer is the same as them ensuring the complaints of their striking workforce are "being heard".

 

[dimsum]

All I know is what I saw on the news, you were there. So I will default to your experience.

Again, the news actually managed to under-report what happened in Ottawa.

I, and my neighbours, were (and continue to be) shocked that the news actually downplayed what happened.

 

[QV]

I'm guessing a lot of people were "shocked" at how widespread the anti-mandate movement was/is.

 

[dimsum]

The convoy didn't want to be in Ottawa. They wanted to go back to work and feed their families. They felt going to Ottawa would help them get back to work.

That may have been what the sentiment was when it started, but it definitely was not that way when it got to Ottawa. Whether by peer pressure, hijacking by other groups with other intentions, or both, it went from protesting against border rules (which, again, were set by the US, not Canada) to “F Trudeau”.

The Convoy had, at most, 2-3 dozen actual trucks in downtown Ottawa. What were the other thousands of trucks doing? Oh right - going to work to feed their families.

 

[Winds]

Update on the class-action lawsuit,

Published Jan 25, 2024

Federal Court's Emergencies Act ruling will 'affirm' claims in proposed class-action lawsuit, lawyer says

A civil lawsuit remains pending against participants of the 2022 convoy protest.

ottawacitizen.com

I've listened to one of the lawyers from Champ & Associates talk about the lawsuit, they don't just claim that local residents suffered from diesel fume inhalation but that the "occupiers" ran diesel engines as a tactic to harass the locals... and not, you know, to keep their cabs warm in the middle of February.

Interestingly, while everyone seems to agree the Ottawa police did a terrible job and could have ended the protests sooner, or at least cleared the vehicles off the roads, the lawsuit does not name the city in the lawsuit. Including the city in their claim for damages would significantly increase the possibility of receiving the large payout they want, if they succeed, rather than their current list claimants, including plenty of "John Does" (names TBD).

 

[vonGarvin]

Absolutely, and peaceful protests happen constantly and they’re fine. What happened in Ottawa stopped being a ‘peaceful protest’ as soon as they criminally obstructed use of the downtown core for a sustained period, which was nearly immediate.

Tell me you're a cop without telling me you're a cop.

Government was upset at peaceful dissent and resorted to what they know best: tyranny. And those jack-booted thugs were only too happy to swing batons for some overtime and their version of TD.

All tools of a government that talked of people with "unacceptable ideas" and wondering aloud if they "ought to be tolerated". The government (and their lackeys in the media) portrayed the entire thing as led by a bunch of "racist, red-necked white supremacist hillbillies" (my paraphrasing).

Get fucked.

 

[Winds]

it went from protesting against border rules (which, again, were set by the US, not Canada) to “F Trudeau”.

It was not specifically about border rules but about mandates broadly. Also, the Canadian and U.S. government worked collectively on reciprocal border restrictions. The government could easily have pushed back against the U.S.'s restrictions, or publicly stated their opposition to them... Of course, their position was the exact opposite though, putting in place punitive measures for all unvaccinated public sector employees, as well as those who work in federally regulated industries, including truckers.

Do you remember during the 2021 election when Trudeau said it was the most important election since the end of WW2? He later referred to the election in the House of Commons as a "referendum" on his pandemic policies... how did his polices differ from the CPC at the time? Both platforms included vaccine mandates for public servants, but the CPC plan included "reasonable accomodation". The LPC plan was much more punitive, including denying EI to employees placed on "administrative leave" against their will (several arbitration cases have now found the denial of EI was unwarranted and went against employment insurance regulations).

During the election, the LPC was falling behind in the polls until Trudeau got gravel thrown at him and ramped up his tough talk against the "fringe minority". Sounds a lot like populism.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Tell me you're a cop without telling me you're a cop.

Government was upset at peaceful dissent and resorted to what they know best: tyranny. And those jack-booted thugs were only too happy to swing batons for some overtime and their version of TD.

All tools of a government that talked of people with "unacceptable ideas" and wondering aloud if they "ought to be tolerated". The government (and their lackeys in the media) portrayed the entire thing as led by a bunch of "racist, red-necked white supremacist hillbillies" (my paraphrasing).

Get fucked.

Ah, the irony of someone with a Roman SPQR user avatar criticizing the government using of force.

Some of the Freedum idiots are still around slow rolling on highways causing backups, almost road raged who decided it would be a fun thing to do the day I was on the way to my dad's funeral.

They were impacting emergency responders, which found out when had to call an ambulance. So outside of occupying people's neighbourhood downtown, threatening, harassing and assaulting people and generally being POS they were causing significant and unnecessary disruption way beyond what is routinely accepted here in the weekly protests and marches that happen downtown for various causes. And yes, there were a bunch of racist, neo nazi hillbillies, conspiracy nuts and others in the mix. If you find yourself on the same side as people like that, even if they are the vocal minority, may be a good time to gut check your position.

 

[brihard]

Tell me you're a cop without telling me you're a cop.

Or, you know, I’ve openly told everyone I’m a cop and worked the event. I’m perfectly comfortable articulating why the actions were illegal. I’ll be doing so in court for a trial in the near future. But hey, good on you for your keen deductive ability.

Government was upset at peaceful dissent and resorted to what they know best: tyranny. And those jack-booted thugs were only too happy to swing batons for some overtime and their version of TD.

All tools of a government that talked of people with "unacceptable ideas" and wondering aloud if they "ought to be tolerated". The government (and their lackeys in the media) portrayed the entire thing as led by a bunch of "racist, red-necked white supremacist hillbillies" (my paraphrasing).

Yeah, you have a weird take on this that’s divorced from facts. They took over the downtown core for three weeks, put a great many people out of work, badly disrupted daily life for thousands of residents, obstructed ambulances and fire trucks, and generally got away for weeks with criminal behaviour Canada has never seen for that sort of length of time before. You not liking that doesn’t make it not true. Clearing it out was not a failing on the part of the government or of my profession. Not clearing out out much sooner was.

I feel perfectly at peace with the fact that we carried out our lawful duties to restore peace and order. And this silliness about “baton swinging” shows how little attention you paid to what was actually done and how. The degree of restraint that was achieved in an operation on that scale was frankly incredible.

Get fucked.

You sound like you could use a hug.

 

[ArmyRick]

Or, you know, I’ve openly told everyone I’m a cop and worked the event. I’m perfectly comfortable articulating why the actions were illegal. I’ll be doing so in court for a trial in the near future. But hey, good on you for your keen deductive ability.



Yeah, you have a weird take on this that’s divorced from facts. They took over the downtown core for three weeks, put a great many people out of work, badly disrupted daily life for thousands of residents, obstructed ambulances and fire trucks, and generally got away for weeks with criminal behaviour Canada has never seen for that sort of length of time before. You not liking that doesn’t make it not true. Clearing it out was not a failing on the part of the government or of my profession. Not clearing out out much sooner was.

I feel perfectly at peace with the fact that we carried out our lawful duties to restore peace and order. And this silliness about “baton swinging” shows how little attention you paid to what was actually done and how. The degree of restraint that was achieved in an operation on that scale was frankly incredible.



You sound like you could use a hug.

I will put it to you one simple way. Justify Trudeau's actions or inactions or what you guys did, how 'tough" it was in Ottawa (Cry me a fucking river, Ottawa), in the end, I am willing to bet that the nation as a whole (the majority, remember?) will judge this the over reaction to the trucker convoy in a very negative way. That is what is going to really matter in the long run.

Yeah it was a peaceful protest. When antifa can beat the shit out of people at other protest across the country and the cops do sweet fuck all, guess what? The bar has been set.

 

[brihard]

I will put it to you one simple way. Justify Trudeau's actions or inactions or what you guys did, how 'tough" it was in Ottawa (Cry me a fucking river, Ottawa), in the end, I am willing to bet that the nation as a whole (the majority, remember?) will judge this the over reaction to the trucker convoy in a very negative way. That is what is going to really matter in the long run.

Yeah it was a peaceful protest. When antifa can beat the shit out of people at other protest across the country and the cops do sweet fuck all, guess what? The bar has been set.

False premise. Our public order enforcement on the ground, as I’ve previously said, was in no way dependent on anything Trudeau said or did. Law enforcement is a provincial responsibility, my team acted under existing criminal law, Ottawa is the jurisdiction of Ottawa police, and my work was as part of a combined force under a unified incident command of multiple police services. We didn’t take direction from the federal government any more than the police at the Vancouver hockey riots did. Nothing arising out of the EA had any impact on any of the arrests I made.

Sling whatever you want at me, that’s fine. My feelings aren’t in any way hurt by the discussion. I’m perfectly content to keep laying out accurate facts. I don’t think expect everyone will be convinced.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Get fucked.

Not cool in the slightest.

@brihard has valuable input on this subject, and many more. You may not agree with it but he doesn't deserve that.