26 and OLD!!

[CallOfDuty]

allriiiight!!!!!!!! This is good to hear
Im glad to see that there are older people doing exactly what i am doing too.
cheers all
Steve

 

[Jason Bourne]

I ran into a gruff old Sgt. who just got out, he was at the bar enjoying himself, around 50ish, but very much in shape, proudly wearing his dogtags. We had a little chat (he bought me a few beers.what a guy!) and I told him I was leaving for St. Jean and all that. He said he would get in and do it again in a heartbeat if he didn‘t have family and all that. Thats a trooper!

 

[chk2fung]

Don‘t forget about us young‘uns. I was a 17 year old officer cadet. It can be jsut as hard for young guys as it is old guys, especially trying to earn respect. It is intimdating to be young!!! The young ones learn lots from the older guys and believe it or not the young guys have a few things they can teach senior too. Respect is given to those who earn it no matter the age. I have seen 50 year old hold up on PT with 25 year olds. As long as you‘re enthusiatic, ready for change, eager to learn from msitakes, and willing to give it your all for the whole, you will go far in the Forces.

 

[Gayson]

Originally posted by Farmboy:
[qb] Just finishing BMQ, I‘m 30. [/qb]

Just 2 more weekends farmboy =D

 

[ZipperHead]

I know I‘m going to catch **** for this, but here goes: the military is a young man‘s game.

I‘m 35 and in better shape than a lot of the guys in their teens and early 20‘s (or older) that work for me. I have to WORK hard to get and stay in shape now. When I was a young ‘un I could drink all night and then go for a LSD run. Now if I have a bit of a bender, I‘m recovering for 2 days, and forget about running (creaky bones).

I have heard/seen many people use their age as an excuse to be out of shape. When I joined there was "over 35" PT for all the crusty types, and I aspired to be able to do that. Alas, that has gone the way of the 5/4 ton...... I have to set goals for myself to force myself to stay in shape. I‘m running in the Cabot Trail Relay next weekend (17.5 km leg into Ingonish). I am planning on doing a half-marathon as soon as I can, and a marathon before I hit 40.

All that said, age is a frame of mind, and the people who "act" old (25 year olds with a big gut and can‘t climb a flight of stairs without huffing and puffing, and have the big-*** XBox thumb muscles, etc) are a poor excuse for soldiers. I agree that most people should be able to join (or apply at the least), but they better be able to perform. I have a 30 year old Trooper (private) in my troop who has more on the ball than some of the 18 year olds who have joined lately, and he has 10 times the work ethic and drive. This is of course due to maturity, and realizing that getting drunk and/or laid by Mary Jane Rottencrotch isn‘t the end-all for a Saturday night (man, I must be getting old if I feel that way too.....). Some of the older people joining have actually experienced life, and some of the chickensh!t stuff we do in the military isn‘t for them, and they think they are above doing it. But if you‘re a 35 year old Private and a 22 year old MCpl tells you to shovel sh!t, you better be hopping to it, and not moaning about it.

I suspect that if average 40 year old civilians can join, and pass all the training, that might be saying something about the state of our training (*****cough***too easy****cough*****). Not so much the training, I suppose, but the standards (or lack thereof). The military isn‘t a social employment agency, where it‘s "come one, come all and don‘t worry about meeting the standard: we‘ll lower ours to meet yours!!!!". The military is about the defence of our nation, and the nation‘s interests (whatever THEY want that to mean....). Soldiering should be difficult (and physically difficult). Walter Mitty types need not apply.

One of the things that distresses me of late with our military is the policy of offering extensions (CE - 3 or 5 year, IPS- indefinite period of service - up to the age of 55) to Cpl‘s and higher, whereas it used to go to only to WO‘s (in the Armour trade, anyway) and higher. I know some older guys that can soldier better than the young guys, but the thought of a 54 year old Corporal trying to keep up on a section attack makes me shudder. I know it can be done, but not by the people that I have seen getting the extensions. Yes, they have experience that 20 year olds don‘t have, but what good is that experience if it can‘t be employed where it‘s important: in the field, or more pointedly, overseas during operations. The British Army has (had??) a policy whereby you can only serve 22 years, unless you are a RSM. I don‘t know all the in‘s and out‘s of this policy, but a Brit Sgt I worked with in Bosnia in 2001 told me of it. I agree with it in principal though: war is a young man‘s game. I suppose the Brits should know this better than us, what with fighting wars for the last 1000 years or so.

I know that I went off on a tangent (what else is new). I hope the best for the older people that are joining, and I hope your eyes are open to the grim realities of the business (when you‘re 18 and you join, you don‘t know any better, so what is bullsh!t to a 35 year old might actually seem cool at that age). Be all that you can be.... If you have no life, there‘s nothing like it!!!!

Off for a nap now,

Al

 

[Farmboy]

so what is bullsh!t to a 35 year old might actually seem cool at that age).

That seems to be the opposite to what I find. I know it‘s BS, but I know it must be done.

These "gamers" that join know it‘s BS as well and think they are above it, or it doesn‘t matter, the attitude is "What ever"

 

[Bert]

You wrote an interesting post Allan, but you make a broad age generalization based upon a perception of physical fitness and age.

No one can argue that physical fitness is important for all military members and
especially for the combat arms.

Yet, after reading your post, lets step back a bit. You say you‘re military so I assume you‘ve been thru basic training, maybe a few courses, been with the unit, and seen stuff and been around.

Considering all that you have met and seen in the military, what is the most important quality you‘ve noticed? Is it the ability to do 40 push-ups as opposed to 19? Is it running 5 km in 12 minutes as opposed to 20? The fitness threshold requirements of the genders or age groups?

Consider this. Taking your experience from you
military background, lets set up a scenario. Its a dark cold wet afternoon and you haven‘t eaten in
8 hours and you‘re drenched. The whole platoon is drenched, tired, hungry, and fed-up being yelled after spending most of the day in the field and on the range and looking forward to a rest and a meal. The Range NCO then orders the platoon to pick-up 1,004,349 empty casings laying around in the mud and then later gives the platoon 150 push-ups for not picking up all the casings.

During that scenario (I expect most of us have faced something like that), who do you most think puts out the most effort, the drive, and the perseverence to get the job done, takes the crap, sucks it up, and returns to the barracks with a decent attitude? If you have the experience, its not always the most physically fit, the youngest, the oldest, and you‘d be surprised at the people who do well in unusul situations. The drive, purpose, and the perseverence to do the job whether its in the combat arms or a support trade are important things to consider.

 

[tirekicker]

i am 38 and am also getting the ball rolling just waiting for the call to do my med.

 

[ZipperHead]

(Bert, if you click on my name (above the cool as **** Strathcona cap badge) you can peruse my profile.)

I have in fact been in a similar scenario that you mention (and on more than a few exercises, in the unit, been around, etc). However, picking up casings in the rain after a whopping 8 hours could be done by my 74 year old mother who has glaucoma and a bad back, and survived WWII and the constant threat of being bombed by the Russians while living in Finland, dontchaknow.... What matters more than anything is the ability to be able to perform in combat, battle, even adverse conditions. I would submit that experience can help you make decisions that can make your life easier, but being fit and ready to fight is what wins battles.

Take a look at the Special Forces units of any country. What do they have in common? They are all fit. The average age in JTF2 hovered in the mid 30‘s a bunch of years ago (it has probably dropped down as a lot of guys got out and they are upping the manning), and those guys were fit in spite of being over 26 (the age that started this thread).

As well, the older someone is when they join, they generally bring a certain amount of baggage when they join. Not always, but I‘ve seen more than a few late-20‘s, early 30‘s types joining with 2,3 or even more kids, sometimes as many ex-wives, and other admin problems out the ***. A 19 year old is pretty much good to go whenever and wherever you want to send them (as long as they can bring their XBox and Discman.....).

I know I was speaking in broad terms, but I have lived through 16 years of watching people not being able to perform (be it 19 year olds who shouldn‘t have passed basic, but there was a new social policy in place, to the 31 year old (with less than a year in), who should be shot with a ball of his own sh!t who said "I should be a MCpl because I‘m older than some of the MCpl‘s in the Regiment".

Anyway, the moral of my story is this: join at whatever age you choose (for some people it has been a life long dream denied by formerly restrictive policies), but be aware that the fitter (and not neccesarily younger) you are, the easier almost everything will be (try being out of shape and doing section attacks by day, patrolling by night and manning a defence with minimal sleep, and get back to me after they recourse you).

A lot of what I mentioned was a reaction to my growing frustration with the mentality of too many people in our military that you don‘t need to be fit, 60% effort in everything is good enough, and you can coast through your career to 55 is a birthright, while the guys who are good to go, get and stay fit on their own time, actually give a rat‘s arse about being a soldier, and then get "punished" for their dedication by going on tour after tour, duty after duty, instructing while other‘s can‘t because of "injuries" that go away after work hours and on weekends.

That was my rant for the evening (until the next one....)

Al

 

[rcr]

So, how fit do you think we should be when we go into Basic Training?

 

[Bert]

Archer

You‘ll get alot of opinions on fitness here. Go to the
CF recruiting site and read about the fitness
specs and guidelines. Search this site for info
on basic training and fitness threads. Based on your interests in the CF, assess yourself and your goals and keep asking questions. Talk to a
fitness instructor or a personal trainer, the CFRC, and people with experience.

Heres a good site for a general overview of basic training:

http://salh.jfahy.net/

 

[rcr]

I‘m looking for Allan Luomala‘s opinion. Thanks though, Bert.

 

[ZipperHead]

Whatever the minimum standard is, and then some. The "a C‘s a P(***) and the weekend‘s free for me" attitude is the death of the Army. The minimum standard shouldn‘t be what people strive for. It‘s a guideline to keep those without a pulse out of the military, and that‘s it. I read a quote on an American leadership site that goes (something) like this: "The 60% soldier of today is the 60% Top Sergeant of tomorrow". The Cdn equivalent would replace Top Sergeant with Sergeant Major, but it remains the same principle.

Too many people (in the combat arms even) think that completing the Battle Fitness Test (13km ruck march with webbing, rucksack and helmet and weapon) in the maximum allowable time means that you are ready to go to war. WRONG!!!! Look at the guys who couldn‘t go up the mountain during Op Cherokee Sky in Afghanistan in 2002. Infantrymen who dropped their rucks and couldn‘t/wouldn‘t go on without a boot in their *** to get them moving. A full combat load certainly weighs more than the joke they call a load on the BFT comprises.

Anyway, take whatever they tell you is the minimal standard (sorry, but I don‘t know what is nowadays), but try to better that by as much as you humanly can. I trained soldiers on the SQ in Wainwright last year that passed BMQ, and all that I can say is that they weren‘t fit to fight. I was worried about going into instruct these young pups, and being in far from stellar shape, and I was able to outrun a goodly number of them. Drive and dedication is also important (even "fit" guys will easily quit when a minor obstacle confronts them). Giving up because it "hurts" is not good. "Hurt" is a relative term. Too me, when you start blacking out, seeing sparklies, legs collapse, vomit erupts: that‘s hurt. Not out of breath and your thighs are un-comfy.

Anyway, that‘s how fit you should be....

Al

 

[rcr]

Allan Luomala, thanks. I was a good-ways over the minimum when I did my PT test acouple weeks ago, but I don‘t think i‘m fit enough yet. We‘ll see when my time comes. Cheers. (Apologies for going off topic)

 

[Bert]

Allan

I understand your point about fitness. As mentioned before, its no arguement fitness is important especially for the combat arms and
any age.

Its just you focus squarely on age and fitness and your assumption that they directly relates to
military competency is odd. Younger people definitely have more physical resisliency (sp)and potential at physical accomplishments. Yet, you miss other important factors like job experience,
attitude, life experience, the ability to understand teamwork, qualifications, purpose, focus, perseverence, and problem solving.

Any number of these factors that are missing or non-existent limits the member in alot of ways. The member could be 19, a physical dynamo, able to run faster than a CF-18, but if he can‘t
work in a team or has a bad attitude, hes essentially useless. If your profile is correct, you outta know this. Superior physical fitness
does not directly equate to a member‘s overall performance. These factors are present in any member of any age. If a radar goes down and it has to be fixed quickly, will superior physical fitness save the day? Will job experience and technical knowledge have any effect? In a fire-fight, will superior physical fitness soley allow the member to fight, over-come, and adapt to conditions? Or is there more to people that makes them over-come adversity and keep going.

Just consider theres more to the equation.

 

[ZipperHead]

Bert,

I suspect that you have an issue with what I‘m saying. Fair enough. Fitness nor age don‘t make the soldier. You can‘t buy experience. Teamwork is important. But why then don‘t we have a military of 60 year old retirees, with life experience out the whazoo. They would know teamwork, because they‘ve needed it to make it through life for 60 years.

My field is the field. If you aren‘t fit, you can‘t do the job. You could be the best tank gunner or driver, Coyote Surveillance Operator in
the classroom or in garrison, but can‘t perform because you‘re tired after doing a little work during the day and then having to work through the night, you are useless. Being physically fit is important, as it makes doing most tasks easier (including mental tasks). Being young helps make getting up at 0300 for whatever mindless task that much easier, and being able to function in that mindless task.

Are you really surprised that the armies of the past recruited the young to do the fighting? Sure some countries used the old timers for homeland defence, but the pointy end always had the young bucks out there. No amount of life experience will get you up and out of the trench into No Mans Land if you are frail and weak.

I know a lot more now than I did when I was younger, and realize that I was a fool to think a lot of the things that I did then. But my younger self was able to do the 10 mile ruckmarck in 1hr 45mins and barely sweat. I did the 13km ruckmarch a few months back in 1hr 50min (beat everybody in my unit doing it that day, mind you) but I was feeling it, all right, and wished that I took it easy rather than to try to prove that I can out-ruck the young pups (maybe I was smarter when I was younger).

In our more technical military, we need technically minded soldiers (AKA Nintendo Generation), not the dinosaurs who think that computers are just a fad that will go away. We need young, fit, smart soldiers to join, and be molded by fit, smart NCO‘s and officers that can lead from the front, who can let go of the past and the comfort levels that we had from the post-Cold War "nothings gonna happen, so we can get fat and complacent". 9/11 ring a bell? Iraq? Afghanistan?

My wife was in Afghanistan in 2002, and she knows what it‘s like to struggle up a mountain under a full load, and not be in the best shape. She wishes that she was better prepared. She‘s a good medic, and that made her press on; so that the troops would have somebody there to help them if they needed her. So drive and dedication play a huge role. But it doesn‘t matter how much you know about something, if you can‘t be there to do it. Trucks break down. Tanks get blown up. Strap on the ruck, and carry on. Mission before self.

Anyway, you know what you mean, and I know what I mean. There‘s a comms gap (give me the right crypto fill, Jimmy) methinks, but again, some of this is borne of the frustration that I‘m struggling with, trying to convince myself that I can help change people‘s attitudes back to the way it should be in the military (fit to fight) not the way it became (fat and lazy).

T42B - Out

Al

 

[Bert]

Actually, you sound like Andy Rooney on a beer night.

 

[Old Cent Hand]

The BFT, and the Express Test , are the minimal standards for fitness in the Army , anyone can pass these tests. As for " humping" one‘s *** in Afghanistan , they made it back , and are enjoying the good " Coin". That‘s what it‘s all about these days is the money. Big cash on tour , then 6 months later , these people are more " broke" , than before. Heck, I would go to Afganistan , on TD.Yes for another $340, a month , I would go there , in a heart beat. To go overseas for the money ? I could prostitute myself , here in Edmonton , and make more " coin".

 

[Old Cent Hand]

That‘s what a tour overseas these days is about , more money.I wish I could be " over fed, over paid , over there."

 

[Jungle]

I absolutely agree with Allan. You can‘t lead "young bucks" from the front if you are out of shape. Nobody is asking anyone to become olympic athletes, but to be fit enough to get the job done, and be ready for the next one without taking a week off...
The stds in the BFT and EXPRES tests are the bare minimum; if people struggle to meet them, then they are not fit enough. They are stds everyone should be able to meet easily at any time, without having to prepare for weeks.