Afghanistan: Lessons Learned (merged)

[Garett]

What are the most popular/best privately purchased chest rigs and vests?  How supportive have CSMs and RSMs been of using non-issue kit?  From what I've heard its a no-go with TF1-07.

 

[Michael OLeary]

From another current thread:

..... we are currently allowing troops to purchase and carry their own equipment in theatre. And TF 1-07 is spear-heading a test of various chest-rigs. 3 PPCLI is currently spear-heading an initiative whereby every soldier will carry 10 mags at all times.

 

[Pte_Martin]

Piper Do you have any more pics of your vest? Also Where did you get yours if you don't mind me asking how much did it set you back?

 

[RHFC_piper]

Here's all the pics of the rig I have. (besides the one I posted)

My hero Pic.

overhead... note all the mags.

The one I bought was the HSGI Denali.  The best place to get one is Daves Army Surplus, as they are the only ones who have the Denali in Arid CADPAT.

They also carry other HSGI Rigs which are equally useful. Including a Molly Rig (Warlord V4) which is very usefull for C9 Gunners.

As for how they were accepted.  We wern't allowed to wear them during work up, and we were told if we wore them overseas, the RSM would personally take them and burn them. But, just before Panjwayi, we were told to wear them if we had them.

IMPORTANT NOTE 1: Chest rigs and other personal gear is worn AT YOUR OWN RISK. If your personally owned gear gets damaged or destroyed, the army won't pay for it. If you get blood on it, it will be burned, like any other contaminated gear.

IMPORTANT NOTE 2: If you use a rig, it had better be able to carry all the same gear your TAC Vest will, and in relatively the same places (MED KIT), or it will be useless when you get wounded.

IMPORTANT NOTE 3: Plate Carriers are not Ballistic vests. And they wont let you use one instead of a Ballistic Vest.

IMPORTANT NOTE 4: If your rig becomes a kit bomb cause you bought a cheaply built one, you will be told to use your TAC Vest... Quality is very important, as it will save your life.

I hope this helps.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Attached as needed, and yes, VERY useful.

Did you practise working with snipers during the work up training, or did you have to figure it all out in theatre?

 

[Garett]

But, just before Panjwayi, we were told to wear them if we had them.

Gotta love that.

..... we are currently allowing troops to purchase and carry their own equipment in theatre. And TF 1-07 is spear-heading a test of various chest-rigs. 3 PPCLI is currently spear-heading an initiative whereby every soldier will carry 10 mags at all times.

I think he's referring to the 3VP Coy with TF 1-07, not the 2RCR BG.  I could be wrong.

 

[paracowboy]

I think he's referring to the 3VP Coy with TF 1-07, not the 2RCR BG.  I could be wrong.

I am. DLS actually listened to certain senior NCOs, and got C Coy issued various chest rigs to 'trial' for him. That POS tac-vest is soon to be history, to be replaced with either the 'winning' chest rig, or more likely, a series of options. Troopie gets to decide what works for him. What a crazy idea. So crazy, it just...might...work.

 

[RHFC_piper]

I am. DLS actually listened to certain senior NCOs, and got C Coy issued various chest rigs to 'trial' for him. That POS tac-vest is soon to be history, to be replaced with either the 'winning' chest rig, or more likely, a series of options. Troopie gets to decide what works for him. What a crazy idea. So crazy, it just...might...work.

What would be really nice to see for the CF, and what is in practice in a lot of US units, is having a gear allotment so troops can select the gear they want and the unit covers the cost.  Of course, guidelines would have to be in place, and all purchases would have to be approved, but it would give units the flexibility to kit up troops with usefull gear. Instead of a C9 gunner carrying only one box in his tac vest, cause his other utiity pouch has to have his med kit in it, and the rest of his ammo in a small pack, they could have molly pouches on a rig where they are comfortable for him to reach during combat.

The US uses Molly ballistic vests, and when we talked to them over in Afghanistan, they told us that they don't even use their issued LBV's / Webbing, they just molly stuff to their body armour... MAYBE ANOTHER GOOD IDEA!!!

Either way, the Vest is a POS and I can't wait till it is out of the system.  Good idea at the time, when we were peacekeeping, but now it's a whole new world. I personally think that the CoC should be listening to the Cpls, MCpls, and Sgts who have the foot on the gound (Combat Arms) and use their suggestions, even more so.

Also, if troops are going to wear the gear in theater, they should be training with it in work up.  When they finally let us wear the gear, I spent a few days adopting various firing positions with the Rig on, testing and adjusting, and when I was comfortable enough, I started practicing changing mags... Over and over and over.  When in battle on September 3rd, it became simple instinct to change mags...Gross moter skills; good to practice.

 

[paracowboy]

I personally think that the CoC should be listening to the Cpls, MCpls, and Sgts who have the foot on the gound (Combat Arms) and use their suggestions, even more so.

Also, if troops are going to wear the gear in theater, they should be training with it in work up. 

well, now you're just talkin' crazy! The troops at the sharp end don't know what they need. It takes someone with years of experience in doing nothing to truly decide something that important. What are you, new?

 

[vonGarvin]

someone else somewhere made a sports analogy (I love sports analogies, by the way): look at hockey players.  Yes, they all have the same colour helmets, etc, but their individual gear varies.  Just as you would not dress a forward like a goalie, why dress a C9 gunner like a rifleman.

 

[paracowboy]

someone else somewhere made a sports analogy

boondocksaint. And he was spot-on. And that is the way I believe we're going to go. Either with the DLS's overt blessing and push, or by having a blind eye turned to troops doing it themselves (which is just cowardice to my mind. "You can do it, troops, just not in Canada where my boss can see."  : )

 

[vonGarvin]

boondocksaint. And he was spot-on. And that is the way I believe we're going to go. Either with the DLS's overt blessing and push, or by having a blind eye turned to troops doing it themselves (which is just cowardice to my mind. "You can do it, troops, just not in Canada where my boss can see."  : )

Agreed that BDS was spot-on.  Hopefully it gets official blessing.  I mean, in 2003, had someone told me that tanks would be deployed one day to Afghanistan, let alone that Canadians would see combat, I would have said that they were flaming mad!

 

[warchild]

This is an issue to every professional soldier.  Anyone that is going over I would hope would believe in more is better.  Speaking of Hope, myself and BDS found ourselves in front of him at the beginning of our tour over a miss quote in the paper on kit.  He did not believe in the 10 mag argument.  At the end of our tour he had put an extra mag carrier on his kit.  People who don't know or have not experenced something will defualt to what they know when confronted with the unknown.  Also to be fair he did allow us to wear whatever we wanted over there but in Canada his boss told him no. That is the first issue (Wait out) I personally believe that for every mission your kit should be tailored towards it.  (Battle prep) As somebody has mentioned the yanks have MOLLE.  At the start of our tour I had 2 different rigs.  One for the mountains and one for the LAV.  In the hills between Feb to Apr, it rains and is cold.  Snivel gear is a must.  I found that my rig from Tiger Tac (I am in it on their web page), was good for that.  When we went into a more mech role after Apr I found the Tactical Tailor chest rig was all I needed.  When we went to Panjwai and Helmand for M thrust I went to a plate carrier with MOLLE on it and put 2 pouches from my Tac Tailor with my  FA pouch.  In all I had 3 different rigs over the tour all equally functional.  So in my humble opinion a MOLLE carrier with the adaptability to be whatever you want it to be whether it is a C-9, C-6, or C7 with a shotgun, is the right direction to go.  Now for the wait out bit....When I was doing some range work with the RCR that relived us I asked why they still had on the Tac Vest.  There reply was that there RSM said no way to the chest rig's etc.  My reply was "I bet he will change his tune once he is in a TIC for a few hrs".  Obviously the powers that be had the intestinal fortitude to change their policy for the good of the troops.  Now lets take that one further step.  I have herd for along time the saying "Train as you fight"  Well before this year there hasn't been to much fighting.  Now as we as a military are having combat veterans coming home, I am wondering if we will hear that saying much anymore.  As it has been mentioned in other threads here on this topic, about not been able to wear non standard kit because the big boss might see it should now be a thing of the past.  I know if I was going over and we had the parade of big bosses coming in to tell us how proud they are of us, I for one would fire my hand into the air and ask the big question on everyones mind.  As for the DLR issue of trial gear, why not give the same kit to a few different units at the same time.  I have done a few trials in my time and I have always found that their gets to be a sort of underground movement about a certain piece or type.  If DLR issued the rigs to a few different units both mech and light (We are all moving to that sooner than we think) I believe it would benefit us better in the long run.  In the mean time though I hope the big bosses allow the guy's doing work up to wear what they are going to scrap with over there to be used to it.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The US uses Molly ballistic vests, and when we talked to them over in Afghanistan, they told us that they don't even use their issued LBV's / Webbing, they just molly stuff to their body armour... MAYBE ANOTHER GOOD IDEA!!!

What's old is new! We trialed IDF body armour with webbing items attached to it by various loops back in the 80's during a Reforger ex in Germany. Of course we all liked it, but knew we weren't getting it.

 

[RHFC_piper]

What's old is new! We trialed IDF body armour with webbing items attached to it by various loops back in the 80's during a Reforger ex in Germany. Of course we all liked it, but knew we weren't getting it.

Unfortunately, those 2 statements seem to be trends in the military; 'What's old is new' and 'We all liked it, but weren't getting it'.

Does anyone know roughly how much a LBV (tac vest) costs? I used to have a price list, but lost it. I just wanted to compair prices between my Chest Rig and the issued LBV.

 

[vonGarvin]

The Librarian may be able to find out.

(Now, pedantic mode on: the "LBV" is that old jean rigged thingy worn famously (infamously?) in bosnia.  The TV is the Tac vest, currently issued to the Land Force)

 

[silentbutdeadly]

I remember when we first got there some of the 173rd boys had IDF rigs and loved them, but they went through the same issues with kit at the beginning of there tour. By the the 2nd mth they were told they also could wear whatever they wanted. There was some talk that the DND were going to buy like 400 rigs for use over in Kandahar, so when you get your helmet cover and such you would also get a " off the rack" rig. We will see i guess.

 

[westie47]

After talking to some of our guys that are on TF 1-07, they said they are getting Arktis Sigma vests. There are three versions coming - rifleman, M203, and C9. We'll see. I don't know why they went with Arktis, but it's better than the TV. I'll know more when the guys come back home for Christmas leave.

On another note, I firmly belive that if a guy is allowed to wear his own rig overseas, then he should be able to do his work-up with it as well. Two words: muscle memory. All officers should be made to read On Combat and Sharpening The Warrior's Edge.

 

[vonGarvin]

All officers should be made to read On Combat and Sharpening The Warrior's Edge.

I think that's the problem: we read too much!  Check out the Army Electronic Library: trust me, those are "required readings".  Reading is fine, but come on, experience and knowledge doesn't always come from a book.

 

[RHFC_piper]

I think that's the problem: we read too much!  Check out the Army Electronic Library: trust me, those are "required readings".  Reading is fine, but come on, experience and knowledge doesn't always come from a book.

I'm incline to agree.  Books Like 'On Combat' and 'On Killing' are quite good reads, but if a command element wants good info on combat and killing their better off talking to thier troops with experience.  As good as books are, more can be accomplished with a good AAR.  Leaves less up to interpretation and cuts to the heart of the issue.