Afghanistan: Lessons Learned (merged)

[Haggis]

I'm what many consider a "borderline old-school" sergeant major.  (A certain LCol in The RCR has referred to me as a dinosaur.)  That being said, this may surprise some folks, but I'm all for using what works on operations. 

I agree that the TV, as a stand-alone load carrying device, is a POS.  But coupled with the Small Pack System (SPS), it's passable.

I also agree with:

IMPORTANT NOTE 1: Chest rigs and other personal gear is worn AT YOUR OWN RISK. If your personally owned gear gets damaged or destroyed, the army won't pay for it. If you get blood on it, it will be burned, like any other contaminated gear.

IMPORTANT NOTE 2: If you use a rig, it had better be able to carry all the same gear your TAC Vest will, and in relatively the same places (MED KIT), or it will be useless when you get wounded.

IMPORTANT NOTE 4: If your rig becomes a kit bomb cause you bought a cheaply built one, you will be told to use your TAC Vest... Quality is very important, as it will save your life.

I don't agree with the age old adage "If the Army wanted you to have (insert item name) it would be issued to you."  Our Army has survived on a shoestring budget, repairing equipment with gun tape and baler twine, for far too long. That, in my opinion is what has led us to this type of mentality where our kit is manufacurted by the lowest cost-compliant bidder.

On that note, I also believe that for units not in the high readiness phase, the kit used in the field should be issued kit, particularly on courses.  The use of HSLD (High-Speed-Low-Drag) kit should be reserved for pre deployment training.

 

[Big Red]

On that note, I also believe that for units not in the high readiness phase, the kit used in the field should be issued kit, particularly on courses.  The use of HSLD (High-Speed-Low-Drag) kit should be reserved for pre deployment training.

This makes no sense.  Why would you train with equipment that you will never wear overseas.  That is "make believe".

After talking to some of our guys that are on TF 1-07, they said they are getting Arktis Sigma vests. There are three versions coming - rifleman, M203, and C9. We'll see. I don't know why they went with Arktis, but it's better than the TV.

While an improvement over the TV...Arktis kit as of late sucks.  They make legacy rigs that haven't really evolved in the last 10 years.

 

[Haggis]

This makes no sense.  Why would you train with equipment that you will never wear overseas.  That is "make believe".

Because not every soldier can afford to wreck/wear out/lose a piece HSLD kit on a regular basis.  A young married Pte fresh out of DP1 may not be able to afford the same HSLD chest rig as his fire team partner single Cpl living in the shacks.  The length of pre deployment training gives the soldier more than enough time to break in and customize his deployment kit.

 

[RHFC_piper]

I just wanted to throw down some more quick points about kit (yet again.. I know, I should just shut up)

When we first had discussions with our CoC about the use of non-issue gear, one of their responces was "The TV is proven and troops have been using it for years."  I found 2 flaws with this; 1) I don't know who the TV was proven with or in what battle, but my understanding was there were problems with it noted even in ROTO 0 in Afghanistan... It really hasn't been around long enough to be "proven" and 2) (this is my fav) one of my fellow soldiers, after the previous statement was made, stuck up his hand and made a very good point; He said "We won WW2 with bolt action rifles. They're proven..."  The crowd went silent.

The CoC even threatened to reissue old (I'm sorry, its old to me) Webbing. And the responce was "Atleast its modular"

And my final point (for this post anyway), as Haggis stated; We've survived on a shoestring budget for ever, we make the kit work, and this is part of the problem. The sad part is that it is a circular problem. We (soldiers) get stuck with equipment which doesn't quite perform up to standard, we mildly complain about it, then soldier on with it. We don't just soldier on, we excell at our perfession with substandard gear, we make it work, we improvise, adapt and overcome. This works it's way up the CoC, and what starts as "jeez, this thing is a piece of ****, oh well, suck it up." turns into; "Well, the troops are doing a great job, that new gear must be working well for them." and because of this, we continue to get the same quality of gear, and we keep making it work.

Unfortunately, there is no simple way out of this cycle. We have to make this gear work, or people die.  Now that troops are buying their own gear, we see the system changing, but thats what it takes.  The Canadian Forces biggest asset, our ability to adapt and overcome, has always been the source of our kit deficiencies.

I also believe that for units not in the high readiness phase, the kit used in the field should be issued kit, particularly on courses.  The use of HSLD (High-Speed-Low-Drag) kit should be reserved for pre deployment training.

I agree 100%.  I had a discussion like this a week ago with my RSM. I had brought my operational kit into the armouries to show it off (I had just got it back) and he asked if I would be trying to order this stuff for the troops in the near future (I'm going to be running the kit shop again... heh)  We came to the agreement that chest rigs were not practical for Reserve soldiers who are not preparing to deploy or are deployed, so I've been talking troops out of buying them unless they're going operational.

It's all about time and place.

 

[vonGarvin]

Train as you fight.  Fight as you train.  We don't use FNs in Canada and then get issued C7s in theatre.  Should be the same with all kit. 

 

[Haggis]

Train as you fight.  Fight as you train.  We don't use FNs in Canada and then get issued C7s in theatre.  Should be the same with all kit. 

Then "show me the money", VG.  In kit, in ammo, in POL etc. etc.  "Train as you fight" applies to all areas.  Wearing your HSLD kit while you yell "Bang! Bang!" at the OBUA site, well, you get the picture.

Kit aside for a minute, I'd like to drag this over towards shooting skills.  For BDS, SBD et al, who taught your gunfighter training?

 

[vonGarvin]

Then "show me the money", VG.  In kit, in ammo, in POL etc. etc.  "Train as you fight" applies to all areas.  Wearing your HSLD kit while you yell "Bang! Bang!" at the OBUA site, well, you get the picture.

I think we violently agree.  (Note I said "should", vice "must be")  Money is a factor, but there MUST be a way.  If you're going to do a job (eg: deploy battlegroups into combat), it's not time to argue financial frugality, IMHO.

 

[westie47]

I think that's the problem: we read too much!  Check out the Army Electronic Library: trust me, those are "required readings".  Reading is fine, but come on, experience and knowledge doesn't always come from a book.

I agree with learning from guys who were over doing the business. WHat I meant was that these books  really advocate the "train as you fight"  mentality.

As for the Arktis kit, I agree that it is old school, however it is better than the TV. They just need to buy a few different off the shelf rigs as well.

 

[boondocksaint]

Daftandbarmy, we did a fair bit of work up with the snipers; coordination etc. And once deployed we generally had enough prep time prior to an Op, to coordinate our actions in detail with them. Plus We've all known each other for years so minimal bun fighting during prep was nice. Without getting into detail, they were an asset in ALL terrain, mountain and urban.

Haggis, our 3rd herd here in Edmonton taught us in the 1st the gunfighter program starting almost 2years ago. IIRC they improvised it from an American training program. Para can shed more light on that.

It works. It's all about gross motor skill. When you are blinking sweat, your palms are slippery, and you have the worst cotton mouth ever, gross motor skills will save you. Particularly when the bulk of our fighting was within 50m, and usually closer. Warchild ( my WO ) snagged alot of ammo and range time for us, and once I taught the preliminary gunfighter program, we sat down and improvised some training based on what our American friends described to us.

Ranges need to be fun. We did competitions, el Presidente drills, and SWAT fun stuff. Mixed in with everything else it gave our guys a sense of urgency and purpose on an otherwise dull " watch and shoot" range. We did this even here on the conventional range in Edmonton, mini-section attacks and the like. During the PWT we all wait to here the numbers from the tower, ' I passed? good nuff'

With the gunfighter program, and what can be done with it, troops actually want to shoot to live. And they need to. Like Warchild mentioned, I was hauled in front of 'da man' over some comments about kit. And then once 'da man' was in a TIC, he put on more mags. Score one for the little guy.

As we were leaving KAF, I sold my rig to an RCR Cpl, it was still filthy, but it was in near perfect condition, it had without doubt contributed to saving my life in many fights, and I actually felt sentimental about selling it. I hope it is serving him as well as it served me, and he passess it on to the next guy.

 

[RHFC_piper]

As we were leaving KAF, I sold my rig to an RCR Cpl, it was still filthy, but it was in near perfect condition, it had without doubt contributed to saving my life in many fights, and I actually felt sentimental about selling it. I hope it is serving him as well as it served me, and he passess it on to the next guy.

I can damn near confirm that it is serving him well. By passing off your gear to us as we arrived, you helped show the CoC that the kit was needed.  By the time I arrived and worked my way through the meat grinder of briefings and kit issues, there was a pile of rigs at the CQ left by PPCLI's from the last tour for troops to use.

There's probably enough rigs in Kandahar right now to outfit every tour that shows up, that is if the military purchased them from the troops... but I don't see that happening.

 

[silentbutdeadly]

Haggis,

The Gunfighter program was started  by 3VP and then passed on to us! U would have to ask them were they got it from, but i think it was the US Marines, but i could be wrong.

 

[paracowboy]

created from whole cloth by the former QMSI of 3VP, who was former DHTC for a while. (Like, it's entire existance, as I understand it.)

 

[boondocksaint]

He's the one who taught our serial, very intense fellow. He liked to yell at me 

'number four, WTF are you doing?!'.....1-2-3......crap, im number four

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

I was lucky enough to have the QMSI in question as my instructor on the range in Edmonton.  It was an outstanding training program that was a huge boost to morale and confidence in addition to the skills/techniques imparted.  I briefed a few grown-ups on it and I was told that it was being incorporated into the shooting program.  I don't know what shape or form it will take pan-Army, but we shall see.

p.s. My arms still ache when I remember...

 

[Haggis]

'number four, WTF are you doing?!'.....1-2-3......crap, im number four

Note to BDS:  Don't be No. 4 again.  ;D

I was lucky enough to have the QMSI in question as my instructor on the range in Edmonton.  It was an outstanding training program that was a huge boost to morale and confidence in addition to the skills/techniques imparted.  I briefed a few grown-ups on it and I was told that it was being incorporated into the shooting program.  I don't know what shape or form it will take pan-Army, but we shall see.

p.s. My arms still ache when I remember...

I hear ya!  I had the opportunity to do the SWAT shotgun course with our local constabulary.  750 rounds in one day, at ranges of five to 25 metres, in every friggin' firing position you can imagine.  Thank God for body armour!

 

[rampage800]

Although I don't know officially, it wouldn't suprise me that 3 VP came up with this program on their own. I know a couple of years ago they had a few guys back from the Hill(3 VP was the DHTC farm team I think before CSOR) that were very proactive with this stuff.  Couple that with a pretty good CO (US SF qual as well) good things happen.
I know the CO put up the proposal to have his guys shoot the program before deploying and the Bde Comd at the time liked it so much he implemented the program to all deploying pers out of 1st Bde (not sure if it was everyone or just Cbt Arms types)
I've heard its going to be or already is adopted Army wide which is a good thing and with more qualified UOIs around the shooting should become more and more proficient(if it isn't already)
Anyhow just my 2 cents.

 

[rampage800]

sorry paracowboy, got excited and didn't read your post first, good ole Gibb eh.

 

[paracowboy]

He's the one who taught our serial, very intense fellow. He liked to yell at me 

yelling wasn't bad. I can handle yelling. It was when he'd get all quiet and look at you that he was truly scary. If you looked him the eyes then, you could actually see the cross-hairs in his pupils.

good ole Gibb eh.

yep, that'd be him.

 

[Haggis]

All that is GOOD NEWS!!

We (the Infantry) don't shoot nearly enough.

 

[Bartok5]

Some further insight, if I may.

Correct - the five-day "Gunfighter" programme was developed by 3 PPCLI approx two years ago.  It was suggested as necessary by some of our BTDT personnel, and was enthusiastically endorsed/pushed by our CO.  The programme gained CLS-level recognition and support, to the extent that it is now considered a mandatory pre-deployment individual training requirement.  Watch for "Gunfighter" (or a version thereof) as a formal annex to the revised "Shoot to Live" publication which is now nearing completion by DAT Inf.

Incorrect - the "Gunfighter" programme did not originate from a U.S. source.  As PC noted, it was developed by former DHTC members of 3 PPCLI based on the shooting programme used at the Hill.  One could argue that the latter is actually an amalgam of international "best practices" (SAS, GIGN, GSG-9, USSF, etc) gleaned by the RCMP SERT and further developed by DHTC as the result of frequent training exchanges.  In fact, the basis of JTF's shooting techniques came from 22 SAS, who assisted the stand-up of the RCMP SERT (formerly known as HARP).  SERT then taught the first intake of JTF-2 as part of the hand-over process back in the early 1990s.  All of that to say, there was no direct linkage between "Gunfighter" and any current U.S. military shooting programme.  

A reflexive shooting package very similar to "Gunfighter" is also taught on the Urban Ops Instructor Course at CTC.  Guess who helped the Infantry School Urban Ops Cell develop the UOIC shooting package?  Yep - a DHTC training assistance team.  

Deploying units have been requesting DHTC assistance in developing reflexive CQB shooting skills for years.  Dating back to at least 2000, when 3 PPCLI had a DHTC Training Assistance Team in Wainwright to teach CQB skills and conduct live range work prior to OP PALLADIUM Roto 6.  Since then, we have simply formalized and internalized the reflexive shooting portion of CQB so that it can be done in-house without the need for direct DHTC assistance.  After all, it isn't rocket science - just a different mindset and shooting techniques than we've tended to focus on in the past.

A bit of background, FWIW.