ANA to get C7s? from the Globe and Mail 13 Aug 2007

[RCR Grunt]

I cant see this going well.  During my deployment there the ANA logistics system was nowhere to be seen.  They resupplied themselves using Taliban weapons caches they would find on operations.  To switch them to a new calibre would eliminate this advantage and leave them to the mercy of a supply system that is still growing its legs.  I feel this will delay the advancement of the ANA to take the forefront in operations, leaving ISAF to stay in a larger role than they would like.  In addition, the AK47 is what these boys were raised on.  To switch them over to the "Mattel toy" C-7 makes little sense.  If we are seeking to give the ANA a combat advantage, we should concentrate on training them in marksmanship principles and combat shooting, eliminating the afghan "spray and pray."  Replacing the old AK's with newer, better made models makes sense and there are countries and companies out there that do that.  As for ammo, the Romanians are in theatre, they use the 7.62, if it comes down to it we could ask them for some bullets.  Just my 2 cents.

 

[felboisse]

I cant see this going well.  During my deployment there the ANA logistics system was nowhere to be seen.  They resupplied themselves using Taliban weapons caches they would find on operations.  To switch them to a new calibre would eliminate this advantage and leave them to the mercy of a supply system that is still growing its legs.  I feel this will delay the advancement of the ANA to take the forefront in operations, leaving ISAF to stay in a larger role than they would like.  In addition, the AK47 is what these boys were raised on.  To switch them over to the "Mattel toy" C-7 makes little sense.  If we are seeking to give the ANA a combat advantage, we should concentrate on training them in marksmanship principles and combat shooting, eliminating the afghan "spray and pray."  Replacing the old AK's with newer, better made models makes sense and there are countries and companies out there that do that.  As for ammo, the Romanians are in theatre, they use the 7.62, if it comes down to it we could ask them for some bullets.  Just my 2 cents.

well said, i dont think they would be able to "spray and pray" with the C7. They should get good training before good equipment because without proper training, all the fancy equipment will be badly used.

Let em stick to the RPGS and AK 47.

 

[slowmode]

  This can have a positive and a negative effect both at the same time. While equipping the ANA with better rifles will help in the long run with there effectiveness in battle it can also bring up many factors. Keeping the bolt clean, the barrel, the flash supresser, and what not is a job and a half. It can be done quickly but I've been told by many of my instructors and higher ranks that a soldier should try to field strip clean his rifle 3 times a day.

  Weapons maintenance is a soldiers responsibility and a big one. If a soldiers rifle is not taken care of properly it can lead to him or his comrade being injured in battle. I think the idea to give the ANA C7's is a great idea. But it has to be done correctly, hopefully each will be given basic cleaning kits and taught how to clean the rifles. If we want the ANA to become a good protecting force in Afghan then they have to be equip well enough so they can do there job better then their enemy.

 

 

[Trooper Hale]

Sorry, but does anyone actually know if O'Conner did promise them Canadian gats in public? Because the inference i got was that it could just be some Afghan chap trying to do a little name and shame with the hope of picking up some new kit at the end of it. Is that just me?
Dont get me wrong, i really respect your average afghan soldier because of the HUGE everyday risks he puts up with (I'm not so sure i'd do this job if my family stood a good chance of being butchered because of it) but this seems to just be a story to sell copies by criticizing the Harper government by the Globe&Mail. Although we all know are totally respectable and wouldnt even dream of taking things out of context.

Maybe i didnt read it right though. And maybe i'm just getting cynical in my old age.

 

[MediTech]

Sorry, but does anyone actually know if O'Conner did promise them Canadian gats in public? Because the inference i got was that it could just be some Afghan chap trying to do a little name and shame with the hope of picking up some new kit at the end of it. Is that just me?
Dont get me wrong, i really respect your average afghan soldier because of the HUGE everyday risks he puts up with (I'm not so sure i'd do this job if my family stood a good chance of being butchered because of it) but this seems to just be a story to sell copies by criticizing the Harper government by the Globe&Mail. Although we all know are totally respectable and wouldnt even dream of taking things out of context.

Maybe i didnt read it right though. And maybe i'm just getting cynical in my old age.

You might be on to something Hale.

 

[RCR Grunt]

I keep seeing people making references to the C7 being "better" or a step up from the AK, and without going into a rifle vs. rifle debate, which has been covered I would imagine, who's to say the AK isn't the better choice?  Its durable, simple, cheap, reliable, and prolific.  I'm not saying the C7 isn't any or all of these things, but yo have to look at who you are equipping.  The average ANA lad doesn't have the supply chain of your average ISAF lad,he gets resupplied from the dead Taliban or from enemy weapon caches, which I've already stated.  Take this into account though ... while going through training it is possible for an ANA soldier to find himself in the midst of combat completely by accident.  There are no safe training areas in Afghanistan.  He may not be proficient in handling his new rifle yet.  But, if equipped with the rifle he has grown up with, he should at least be able to return fire.  I think I'm up to 4 cents now, stop me if I go over a nickel!

 

[TheHead]

I would imagine they'll equip them with original C7's of which I am sure there is many in storage, and with all the logistical and maintenance hoopla on the ELCAN, supplying them to 'monkeys' (poorly trained and educated) would not be the best idea. There is no infrastructrure/training for maintenance at any level by the ANA worth mentioning, unless Colt Canada is sniffing out a ongoing parts and maintenance programme for both the EOS and the weapon. Maybe IVI is in on the ammo bandwagon too? Some Canuckistan war profiteering perhaps??  ;D ha!

Personally the ANA should be equipped with AKs, it makes sense, its the regional weapon of choice, robust and monkey-proof, the ammo will be around long long after our Forces are out of the area.

As for MEDTECH's babbling about stoppages and problems with the C7 FOW, he's been watching too many Viet Nam war movies et all, and listening to the M16 urban myths. Stay in your lane mate and stick to your level of small arms knowledge and trade, as you just make an arse out of yourself.

I would not consider the ANA our Allies, just on our side for the moment.

I have full confidence on the M16 FOW in any climate, and thats info not from a magazine, thats from personal experience.


Cheers,

Wes

Monkeys?  Please... I've seen just as many "Monkeys" in the American, Canadian and British Army.  I've seen Canadian soldiers do the Spray and Pray against the Taliban.
I've fought alongside the ANA and can say they have some outstanding soldiers, other than the Asshole who almost killed me with a RPG.
You should be disgusted in yourself for slandering them like that.  The only way they will ever switch sides is if the Taliban win, and we all know that will never happen.

 

[Fusaki]

I keep seeing people making references to the C7 being "better" or a step up from the AK, and without going into a rifle vs. rifle debate, which has been covered I would imagine, who's to say the AK isn't the better choice?  Its durable, simple, cheap, reliable, and prolific.  I'm not saying the C7 isn't any or all of these things, but yo have to look at who you are equipping.

My thoughts exactly.

Just because the C7 family of weapons is better for us, doesn't mean its better for the ANA. From what I saw of the ANA, they just don't have the training, discipline, infrastructure, or the mindset to use the same kind of rifle we use in western forces. Its better for them to have an OK rifle that always works then a superior rifle that requires more range time and maintenance. Its not that the C7 is really that finicky, its that the AK is just geared towards the lesser trained soldier.

Monkeys?  Please... I've seen just as many "Monkeys" in the American, Canadian and British Army.  I've seen Canadian soldiers do the Spray and Pray against the Taliban.
I've fought alongside the ANA and can say they have some outstanding soldiers, other than the ******* who almost killed me with a RPG.
You should be disgusted in yourself for slandering them like that.  The only way they will ever switch sides is if the Taliban win, and we all know that will never happen.

In all fairness, the ANA have balls of steel and a serious hate on for the Taliban. That makes them OK in my books. But they DO have a tendency to ND into each other... when they're not shooting each other on purpose. Nevermind the fact that they get high every night and go AWOL regularly. Even compared to the worst Canadian soldier, the ANA is a whole other world. I don't blame them for it having grown up in that environment, but lets call it for what it is. The ANA is a 3rd world army with 1st world support.

I've also fought along side ANA - from looking at your profile I'll bet it was some of the same guys you were with... and I have to say that I trust those guys about as far as I can throw them. Yes, they're good fighters. But I'm fairly convinced that they're on our side only as long as we have a common enemy.

 

[1feral1]

Monkeys?  Please... I've seen just as many "Monkeys" in the American, Canadian and British Army.  I've seen Canadian soldiers do the Spray and Pray against the Taliban.
I've fought alongside the ANA and can say they have some outstanding soldiers, other than the Asshole who almost killed me with a RPG.
You should be disgusted in yourself for slandering them like that.  The only way they will ever switch sides is if the Taliban win, and we all know that will never happen.

Not at all, monkeys meaning low moral, little confidence, questionable loyalities, sub-standard (by our standards)soldiers poorly trained, and little discipline, nothing more than that. My experience comes from the New Iraqi Army, and the Iraqi Police, and from what I have heard first hand from our Forces in AFG.

In my time in Iraq, I never observed  any western 'monkeys', just a few idiots who fell thru the cracks somehow, so don't get your dander up by miunderstanding me.  I simply have littel confidence in the ANA overall.

Regards,

Wes

 

[Bzzliteyr]

The first thing that came to mind when I was reading that artcile was that it might come in handy to have the "good guys" all kitted out with different equipment than the "bad guys".  With the Taliban all looking just like every other AK47 carrying person in Afghanistan, wouldn't it make sense to give our allies the same weaponry that we are used to seeing?  It would make it a whole lot easier to kill the right people in a firefight.

If you were to pass through a town and see an individual with a C7.. you could probably assume that it's a stolen/acquired weapon that he shouldn't have, hence Taliban or another "bad guy" organization.

I don't care about the ak vs c7 debate and I am almost positive O'Connor didn't think it as in depth as I did, and maybe I am totally out in left field but I think it's a good idea to give them a little bit of hope and individuality..

 

[rz350]

Well, if they are need in of weapon's and Canada is willing to give them C7's, I am sure the rifle will be an efective and deadly tool for them. However, the AK (it any of its interations from 47 to 108...including the 5.56mm NATO versions...thats the 101 I think?) is also a deadly and effective tool. If they have enough working and reliable AK's, perhaps we should give them more training support, and possibly heavy weapons/other stuff they dont have. (LAW's? Mortars? old arty? ect)

 

[RCR Grunt]

I'm about go go over my nickel limit...

I agree with rz350, if we want to help weapon wise, lets give them some punch they don't already have.  As far as changing all their weapons over to a NATO standard, I think thats wrong, and thats what I infer from us giving them our old stocks.  Its much easier for Afghanistan to obtain and maintain old Warsaw pact style weapons than it would be NATO std ones.  Why?  Because they have them all laying around!  Of course, they are in various states of disrepair, but we could always refurbish them.  I think that is the appropriate answer.  A refurbished set of weapons modified to produce more accurate results is the way to go.  All this old truck we call the ANA needs is a tune-up and she will run just fine, we don't need to swap out the whole engine to get'er runnin'!

 

[1feral1]

the AK (it any of its interations from 47 to 108...including the 5.56mm NATO versions...

In March while leaving the LSA at Ali Al Salem in Kuwait, I ran into a bunch of Polish soldiers enroute to AFG outside the PX (resembles a Matt Dillion Dodge City look for those that have been), with their AKs, even had a safety catch/change lever on both sides, similar to the Galil, and their AKs were 5.56mm. Plastic mags which were black, and almost identical to their 5.45 x 39mm cousins, and being honest, I thought they were 5.45mm until I asked. All spoke perfect English too.

I had also ran into a bunch of Iraqi SF, using US weapons, from M4's to M240Bs and .50 Brownings. Other 'elite' troops had the new black style furniture on their early machined from solid stock recievers, both of Chi-Com Type 56 and Russian manufacture. The mainstreamers had generic AK47s and AKMs from every corner of the former Warsaw Pact's globe.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[3rd Herd]

The usual disclaimer:
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/War_Terror/2007/08/14/4417572-cp.html

Canadian rifles must be adapted for physique of Afghan soldiers: officer
By MARTIN OUELLET
KANDAHAR, Afghanistan (CP) - The relatively small stature of Afghan soldiers is one of the reasons for the delay in getting Canadian weapons into their hands, a Canadian military officer said Tuesday.
"Afghan soldiers are a little shorter than Canadian soldiers, so you want a shorter butt stock on it," said Lt.-.Col. Wayne Eyre, the outgoing commander of the Operational Mentoring and Liaison Team, which is responsible for training the Afghan National Army.

The modified C7 assault rifles will then be easier for Afghans to handle, said Eyre, who is being replaced by Lt.-Col. Stephane Lafaut of the Royal 22nd Regiment.

Ottawa promised earlier this year to supply Afghan soldiers with ammunition and C7 rifles.

Lafaut said the transfer of weapons is a lengthy process because it involves different technology and is subject to several international agreements.

The delivery delay has slowed the preparation of Afghan recruits and stalled their planned takeover of combat operations against the Taliban.

The C7 is the standard issue rifle for Canadian troops. It is similar to the American M-16, one of the weapons commonly used by modern western armies.

Afghan soldiers have been waiting impatiently for the C7 rifles because their current weapons are often defective AK-47 rifles from the old Soviet era.

The C7 is more accurate and has a greater range than the AK-47, and will allow the Afghan army to be more efficient on the ground, a leading Afghan officer said recently.

Meanwhile, Afghan National Army Col. Abdul Basir said Tuesday he hopes to get a first batch of weapons by the end of the month so recruits can become familiar with them as soon as possible.

A Defence Department spokesman in Ottawa recently confirmed that supplies for the Afghan National Army are planned, but declined to specify a date when they will be delivered.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I am baffled at the need to give them western weapons, unless the purpose is to attempt to slowly remove the AK from circulation in Afghanistan, which is likely to fail.

 

[blacktriangle]

Great so there will be our C7's around on the black market, en masse, in due time...when my c7 could use replacing itself...  :-\

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

i read some where that  the Iraq  was being sold the M16 svc weapon to replace the Ak family of weapon because the winners of the war were armed with them and they wanted to have the same weapon as the winners.  Aks were for the losing side of the war. I do not remember when or what  paper i ead it in, the National Post or the Ottawa Sun were the newspapers of the choice at my house at the time. Could replacing the AFGANS  weapons with C7s be in the same line of thought. one weapon for the winners and one for losers. I do not know where to find the story  to post here from the news source but here is a link to it froma website.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20070517.aspx
i donot know much about the ak family  so do not want to be accused of being out of my  lane, just know what i read.
so there is some more thoughts on the switch

 

[1feral1]

i read some where that  the Iraq  was being sold the M16 svc weapon to replace the Ak family of weapon because the winners of the war were armed with them and they wanted to have the same weapon as the winners. 

The Iraqi government is currently replacing all current AK47s and AKMs with new AKM, the 101 I do beleive, the one with all the black plastic funriture. From what i understand, this is for the ISF, both Police and Army.

Along with this is the latest black spear point new style AK bayonets, of which I managed to scrounge two variants of. All new and unissued, and already around not long before I left. One is Russian, the other Bulgarian, one is plumb, the other black. These are a ne design, and are now unique, but the grip is similar in a way to the US M9 family of bayonets.

So that M16 replacement is a rumour or media hype WRT generic Iraqi Forces, but as I said in a previous post here, some Iraqi SF units are using US weapons. The unit we met had US SF advisors, and were not 'stand alone', but of all the locals I met, the SF guys were switched on, and Vets, I would say aged between 30 and 50, so Allah only knows what they were doing pre 2003! They loved us Aussies, and our Steyr AUG rifles. Vehicles were US too, Hummers, but an earlier armoured version with an earlier style of turret, and Iraqi camouflage painted, not just tan like the US ones, so you could tell them apart quite noticably.

I traded my Aussie patch for theirs, and we wore each others, joking around. Less than an hour after we left them, we came under rocket attack! That was 21 Dec 06.

Mick Kalashnikov's enhanced AK (in 7.62 x 39mm) will truly be in Iraqi hands, both civvy (and the bad guys too), para-military and military for decades to come! However, point to mention, I did see AK74s in 5.45mm used by the Iraqi MND's CPP guys. East German MPiKM types with side wire folding stocks, and definatley with orange bakilite 5.45mm mags on, safety catches on automatic!

Yes, Diemaco C7 rifles will fall into bad hands in AFG in a matter of time, and yes be on the black market, and who knows where they will be in 10 yrs from now. I think its a poor idea overall.


Wes

 

[KevinB]

Iraqi SF have M4's and M16A2's.

more on the rest tomorrow.

 

[geo]

There was a story in the press in the past 5 days that discussed an order, allegedly approved by the US for Iraqi police & military that was being funneled through Italy.  AKs and AKMs I believe.  Turns out that this was not a US approved order and that it was probably destined to arm some militias & terrorists.

The whole thing is being unraveled right about now, arrests of arms merchants and the middlemen have been carried out.  With luck they can roll things back to the instigators, recoup some of that Iraqi reconstruction $$$ that's dissapeared and make Iraq a little bit safer, for a little while.