ANA to get C7s? from the Globe and Mail 13 Aug 2007

[Big Red]

The Iraqi army is also replacing it's AK variants (some very recently purchased) with US supplied M16A2s and M4s.  The entire army will be equipped with the M16 FOW. The ones I've seen had fixed stocks and looked awkward in the hands of guys wearing body armour.  The Iraqi SF has been supplied with US equipment since it's formation. I've seen them with M4, M24, M249, M240, M2, NVGs, etc.  They also have US SF-style humvees with multiple weapons mounts and Mamba APCs.

I'm not totally against supplying the Iraqi ARMY with the newer weaponry, as it will help them look more professional, increase NATO ammo interoperability, and make Friend or Foe ID easier.  I can think of better things to spend money on though.  I'm not sure if they are providing the IA with any NATO belt feds, but I hope not as the PKM works just fine.

I would not supply the Iraqi POLICE with anything new as the organization is 100% corrupt with the possible exception of a couple units mentored by US SF.

The arms smuggling ring into Iraq was orchestrated by the MOI according to the article. Those weapons would have ended up in the hands of the MOI Commandos (mahdi militia in uniform).

There were pictures in the Stars & Stripes recently of Afghan SF units with M4s and M249s with iron sights and Knight's RAS.

 

[McG]

It is too bad that we've already sent away our AVGP.  Those would have done more for the ANA that a few rifles.

 

[geo]

he AVGP turrets have been recycled to the TLAVs.
Amongst other things, the 1st generation Mowags had a stability problem - that was corrected on the LAV IIIs
The hulls were tired
If we weren't prepared to use em ourselves in Afghanistan, I wouldn't consider it doing the Afghans a favour - to ship so much "scrap metal" their way...

 

[McG]

An AVGP would be better than the open pick-up trucks they have now. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Actually a Mine protected version of a commercial truck similar to the early SA vehicles would be cheaper and easier to source part, either based on a Mercedes or Gaz commercial truck.

The Pickup will always be around because they are cheap and fairly easy to maintain and train people to drive. It would be nice if they got some of the V150 armoured cars to give them some teeth, even some BRDM’s wouldn’t hurt.

 

[KevinB]

Your missing the spirit of the infanteer/rifleman -- a soldiers primary tool is the rifle - the image is of the soldier with the rifle - and for Afghani's this a very personal thing - they like to fight and kill stuff -- sure some other kit might be in greater need for operational capability - but when your tryign to built the warrior spirit and elan in the force - a rifle is a damn good way to do it.

 

[McG]

The warrior spirit is already there in the ANA.  They need to build capability.

 

[MarkS33]

Hey there ladies and gentlemen, this is my first post and i found this topic rather interesting. I understand that it would be much more convenient for us to give the Afghans some Canadian made rifles, but lets look at the area. the majority of the rifles in the area run along the same lines as the AK-47. So I'm just wondering... If, God forbid, after we leave and Afghanistan is on it own, its gets invaded by say... Russia or Pakistan ( they are the two big powers in the area...) wouldn't it be better for them to be using the AK-47 as they would be able to interchange parts and pick up spare ammo in the field rather than having to rely on convoys and Canadian or American parts?. i say this simply because, we are not going to be there forever and by comparison, or troops are much better equipped and will be readily available to pass out a spare mag in the heat of a firefight or engagement. lemme know what you guys think.... though i do agree about the harm it will cause to the warlords, but I'm sure they have the ability to get their own bullets from other sources, all be it at a higher price.

 

[Jorkapp]

Hey there ladies and gentlemen, this is my first post and i found this topic rather interesting. I understand that it would be much more convenient for us to give the Afghans some Canadian made rifles, but lets look at the area. the majority of the rifles in the area run along the same lines as the AK-47. So I'm just wondering... If, God forbid, after we leave and Afghanistan is on it own, its gets invaded by say... Russia or Pakistan ( they are the two big powers in the area...) wouldn't it be better for them to be using the AK-47 as they would be able to interchange parts and pick up spare ammo in the field rather than having to rely on convoys and Canadian or American parts?. i say this simply because, we are not going to be there forever and by comparison, or troops are much better equipped and will be readily available to pass out a spare mag in the heat of a firefight or engagement. lemme know what you guys think.... though i do agree about the harm it will cause to the warlords, but I'm sure they have the ability to get their own bullets from other sources, all be it at a higher price.

Using the AK-47 on the grounds of "interchanging parts and ammo" is pointless if Russia invades, since the Russian Army now has the AK-74 as standard issue. IIRC, parts and ammo are not interchangeable between the '47 and '74.

 

[geo]

Mark...
another thing... the point you bring up is valid, but has already been discussed in this very thread....
Would be nice if you boned up on what's being talked about before jumping in.

 

[1feral1]

... parts and ammo are not interchangeable between the '47 and '74.

Ammo definatley not, but many parts are interchangeable on both 5.45mm and 7.62mm rifles. I've seen it, and done it, so I know what I am talking about, so their is NO bullshyte factor here.

Its been about 45 years since the Russians stopped using the AK-47 (most went to 'client' countries and war stocks back then) , the AKM came into play in about 1959, and for those that don't know the AKM is just a modified AK-47, using more steel stampings, a stamped receiver vice a solid stock machined job, a different handguard, different gas block, 1000m rear sights instead of 800m, a bayonet lug, a flash suppressor/muzzle break, and utilising a rate reducer in the trigger mech.

So the buck stops here yet again.

Those not knowing the facts should indeed stick to their own lane of expertise. Soon we'll be hearing that 7.62mm our's/their's interchanability myth again  :

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Jorkapp]

Ammo definatley not, but many parts are interchangeable on both 5.45mm and 7.62mm rifles. I've seen it, and done it, so I know what I am talking about, so their is NO bullshyte factor here.

Its been about 45 years since the Russians stopped using the AK-47 (most went to 'client' countries and war stocks back then) , the AKM came into play in about 1959, and for those that don't know the AKM is just a modified AK-47, using more steel stampings, a stamped receiver vice a solid stock machined job, a different handguard, different gas block, 1000m rear sights instead of 800m, a bayonet lug, a flash suppressor/muzzle break, and utilising a rate reducer in the trigger mech.

So the buck stops here yet again.

Those not knowing the facts should indeed stick to their own lane of expertise. Soon we'll be hearing that 7.62mm our's/their's interchanability myth again  :

Cheers,

Wes

Thanks for the correction Wes. I knew the ammo was different, but I hadn't heard anything on parts interoperability. Cheers.

 

[MarkS33]

yeah.. sorry about that, go figure it to be me to be the dummy who missed the page where what i say is already posted.  :brickwall:

 

[Blakey]

UPDATE
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/national/071223/n122308A.html

Canadian military donates old C7 rifles to Afghan National Army

Published: Sunday, December 23, 2007 | 12:14 PM ET
Canadian Press: THE CANADIAN PRESS
KANDAHAR, Afghanistan - The Canadian military has agreed to donate 2,500 surplus C7 rifles to the Afghan National Army along with ammunition and training.

The decision, made quietly last week, is expected to bring the fledgling Afghan force in line with other NATO countries.

Building capacity among the ANA is the key to Canada's exit strategy from Afghanistan.

Last month a senior Afghan commander told The Canadian Press that better weaponry was crucial to the buildup of the ANA.

Lt.-Col. Shirin Shah Kowbandi said the army's old Soviet-era AK-47s frequently misfire.

At the time he said Canadians had promised to provide the ANA with "good weapons" but that they had not yet delivered.

 

[geo]

2500 "surplus" rifles?  Wonder what's that supposed to mean?

2500 surplus Elcan scopes included in the deal? - If I were afghans, I might not be happy with the end product.
With luck we'll provide the rifles with screw on rail mounted iron sights

 

[Jorkapp]

2500 "surplus" rifles?  Wonder what's that supposed to mean?

2500 surplus Elcan scopes included in the deal? - If I were afghans, I might not be happy with the end product.
With luck we'll provide the rifles with screw on rail mounted iron sights

Could we not donate the older C7 uppers with the integrated iron sight/carry handle?

 

[Eric_911]

Like it or not the Afghans are our allies in this fight, if re-equipping them with modern weapons will get them into the fight then I'm all for it. The argument that the Taliban will use these weapons against us is pretty much moot as captured ot stolen M16s and M4 Carbines and  black market versions of the same are already being used against us, wether or not you are killed by an ex-Soviet AKM  or a Colt product doesn't matter you are still dead. Given the marksmanship standards of the Taliban and others I am not too worried about it either way, as it is the shooter not the tool that makes the difference.

I agree with MG34, invariably the weapons (even if only a few) will eventually trickle into the wrong hands. I also agree with helping out the ANA with weapons, since we're fighting the same war and all. In this case our country are the "haves" and the Afghan's, in most cases, are the "have not's".

My only qualm is having our names (CANADIAN FORCES CANADIENNES) and that nice little Maple Leaf on every one of those weapons. Maybe its just me.....

"Made in Canada" or "Made in China"? Fine. But not "Canadian Forces"

Should a member of another allied nation (or even one of our own) recover that weapon after being shot/shot at by it, he/she will probably not hold the "Canadian Forces" in quite as high a regard.

Just my 2 cents

 

[dapaterson]

I'm reasonably certain the weapons will be marked in some way to indicate the transfer of ownership - and have the Canadian identifiers suitably defaced or modified.

I'm also hoping they are in fact C7s with iron sights - because, let's face it, would we really want to inflict the Elcans on anyone else?

 

[Eric_911]

Well...(not trying to be confrontational by any means)...

Unless they grind the side off of 2,500 C7 lower receiver's, they'll all still say "Canadian Forces" on them, regardless of any additional stampings indicating ANA transfer/ownership. People will still look at the CF if the situation I described above transpired.

 

[NL_engineer]

I think the C7's bought by the Dutch, still say 'Canadian Forces' on them.

hopefully we are not sending along the elcans.  Even if they are C7A1's there is always that flip up site that costs something like $6.00 (or so I am told).