ANA to get C7s? from the Globe and Mail 13 Aug 2007

[geo]

Eric..... your thoughts are noted but, I think you're chasing a red herring.

US made M16s were used by the Viet Cong .... so what?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I think all professional military realize that captured weapons will be used and understand that sometimes it is beyond the originating countries control.

 

[Old Sweat]

Ex-Dragoon's statment here is correct:

"I think all professional military realize that captured weapons will be used and understand that sometimes it is beyond the originating countries control."

Unfortunately one cannot say the same of the media.

 

[geo]

Unfortunately one cannot say the same of the media.

Thank the lord that fewer & fewer people are inclined to believe the tripe that comes out of MsM.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I have not seen anything really that states which variant of C7 the ANA are getting.....

 

[medaid]

It's either just me, or I really don't think the ANA will switch over to M16s or C7s as fast as some of us would like to believe.

The first thought that comes to mind is the availability of ammo and parts. Not to mention a working knowledge and understanding of basic upkeep of a Colt series weapon.

5.56 aren't as easy to get as 7.62 in a country that's all about 7.62s. The last time I checked, we haven't lost a large ammo cache anywhere... have we? Why do you think AK and its variants are the most prominent weapon types around the world. A jihadist's weapon of choice?

 

[geo]

Once the ANA (&ANP at a later date?) starts using 5.56, then there will be 5.56 ammo available.
Over time, the TB & AQ will use 5.56 if it suits their needs.  PERIOD!

 

[medaid]

Once the ANA (&ANP at a later date?) starts using 5.56, then there will be 5.56 ammo available.
Over time, the TB & AQ will use 5.56 if it suits their needs.  PERIOD!

My point exactly, but you're just more eloquent at it It's a matter of convenience, and 7.62s are convenient and takes very little training with the AK compared with a Colt variant. Don't need to scrub as hard or as long with and AK, hell probably don't even have to scrub that often. With a Colt variant, it's harder to maintain in comparison... and supply yadda yadda yadda. Time will tell.

 

[NL_engineer]

Over time, the TB & AQ will use 5.56 if it suits their needs.  PERIOD!

If they aren't using it now in the form of captures weapons (not saying they are, have been, or will ever  :)

 

[KevinB]

C7's bought by the Dutch do not have any CF literature on them.

The CF have lost SEVERAL C7 anbd C8 rifles in Afghan, and the US and other have lost some of theirs" what does it matter how the rifle is marked? 

 

[geo]

Heh.. If I recall, in 2002, there were plenty of old Martini Henry rifles that turned up during searches.
No one was blaming the Brits for having provided the Afghans with those weapons....

Think about it, after WW2, there were tons of K98, MG34 & 42, MP40, P38 & P08s making their rounds of Europe, North Africa & the world's hot spots.  What do you do with all those weapons after the end of a global war?

 

[geo]

Article in the Montreal Gazette today.  Picture of the Afghan army on the ranges firing their "new" C7 rifles.
As expected, the C7s are the original C7 rifles with the carrying handle/iron sights = M16 lookalikes.

The ANA sergeant major quoted in the interview underlines the need of his troops to learn how to clean and maintain their rifles....

http://digital.montrealgazette.com/epaper/viewer.aspx    (page A15)

 

[geo]

UK arming Afghan tribes will not work, warns US commander

Mathaba.Net
Posted: 2008/01/04

British plans to equip tribes to defend their villages against the Taliban will not work in the region of Afghanistan in which UK forces are responsible, according to the top US general commanding NATO forces in the country.

Prime Minister Gordon Brown said last month the UK, responsible for the southern Helmand province, would increase its support for "community defence initiatives, where local volunteers are recruited to defend homes and families modelled on traditional Afghan arbakai".

But US General Dan McNeill, commander of the International Security and Assistance Force, said the model would be effective only in the south-east, and not in Helmand.

"My information, from studying Afghan history, is that arbakai works only in Paktia, Khost and the southern portion of Paktika and it's not likely to work beyond those geographic locations," McNeill said in an interview published in the Financial Times (FT) Thursday.

"What we should not do is take actions that will reintroduce militias of the former power brokers. There has been some good work here to get those things back in the box and we shouldn't seek to go back there," he warned.

With overstretched international and Afghan security forces struggling to contain the country's insurgency, some countries, including the UK and Denmark, are pushing for greater use of tribal militias to strengthen efforts against Taliban and al-Qaeda forces.

The US commander said although there was a role for "local security solutions", care had to be taken not to fuel inter-tribal fighting.

Ehsan Zahine, director of the Tribal Liaison Office in Kabul, was also quoted saying that it was unlikely that a 200-year-old arbakai system would be effective even in the three south-eastern provinces where it has traditionally held sway.

"In a place like Khost it will be very hard to persuade villages to fight for a government which they regard as abusive," Zahine said, pointing out that a proposal to use arbakai in the south-east was rejected two years ago.

The FT said that British interest in community defence initiatives has been prompted by the difficulty of quelling the insurgency in Helmand and by frustration with the quality of Afghanistan's police force, which is being retrained. --IRNA

This could become very complicated if the ANA ends up stocking weapons of the world ..... with different rifles in each Kandak.  Also, don't think the Brits would be doing the Afghans any favors if they supplied those surplus original SA80/L85 they were so fond of (not!)

 

[Soldier54]

How about the simple response that the C7 is easier to support that the AK.  The ANA wpns are old and well worn. Replacing them, while simple in concept has a few edges to it.  Why maintain the Russian 7.62?  Weapons from Romania and a number of other countries have been over poor quality.  While it is easy to make fun of the C7 - it is still better than anything the old Russian system produced, with regards to maintaining it in 2008.  Lastly, why should we be paying an eastern European country or Chineses country to maintain a weapon system that we produce quite efficiently.  Yes, we can make AK ammo, but why should we?  The weapon we just sent them is still an outstanding system.

 

[RCR Grunt]

Why are you suggesting we support them the way you are?  The whole purpose is for us to help them stand on their own feet and then leave at a time that they can take care of themselves.  The way you are talking it sounds as though we will be in Afghanistan and supporting the ANA logistically forever.  WE are only there till THEY can do it THEMSELVES, then WE are gone and THEY will be left with what WE have forced upon them.  The decision has to be made with Afghan independence in mind, not ease of logistics for Canada.  The weapons we have supplied are good weapons, but are they the best weapons for the ANA?  Maybe, maybe not. The C7 is easier to support for us, but not for the ANA, at least not the way they operated when I was there.  That being said this part of the topic has been discussed to death.

I'd tell you to stay in your lane, but I have no idea what your lane is.  Perhaps if you filled out your profile it would make it apparent what your expertise is in this subject.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Sorry I think at the present time this is a horrible idea.

 

[Soldier54]

The whole point of getting them to stand up is to ensure "they know how to stand up".  While I know they can fight, logistic support is still an issue within the ANSF.  They never had to deal with that before - to make the force sustainable and viable, they need to stood up to support the Government.  That means they must be functional and supportable, which they will not be able to do on our own.  Simply put, if we don't set them up for success, they will fail.  That is why we need to equip them, support them, train with them and fight along side.  Expecting them to secure their own country from internal issues, organized crime, neighbouring countries, etc with what little equipment they have now will not help anyone.

 

[1feral1]

AKs in that part of the world as as common as chopsticks in China.

Some tribal forces still carry Lee-Metfords (c.1899)! Holy shyte, over!

AKs of all variations (Chi-Com, Russian, East German, Polish, Romanian, Hungarian etc and in calibres 7.62 and 5.45.) will be in use for the next 100 yrs.

Canada making AK ammo? Plenty of ammo to go around already. I can see us supplying it though, if we had to. It would be cheaper to buy it off the shelf from eastern Europe, China or Russia, in bulk, then tool up for it. They've been making for over 60 years in the Com Bloc world. The ammo is good stuff, and I've seen tins of it made in the 1960's, cracked open the spam tin, and ready to go. In theatre, we used Russian and Chinese ammo. The Chi-Com stuff was 1961! At our FOB, I maintaned our 'fleet' of captured AKs, and there never was a stoppage, although the Romanian one we had only fired on automatic! That one was a rusted battlefield pickup, and it only took me a few hours to clean it up.

Some Eastern Euro standards of the Cold war period, perhaps were not say as Q1 as East Germany for example, with the over'anal stereotypical german engineering (these former DDR rifles were Q1!!, Of the many, and I mean many AKs I seen in service with the Iraqi Army, and the ones taken from the AIF were overall good to go. A little shiny perhaps, but worked how they were supposed to.

Seems more practical to train up on the easy AK 'peasant proof system' then the M16 FOW. Why the ANA cannot be sponsored by a logistical front which caters the AK FOW is beyond me, but in reality the small qty of C7 rifles, will be like a bucket of sand of a beach, if that. A small gesture, not a big swing to COLT like some think.

Sooner or later thru attrition, parts and logistics will be an issue. Their EME system is piss weak, their supply system is even worse, so there will be alot of canabilisation almost instantly. The serviceable fleet will shrink from the get-go.

In the short term, repairs etc can be carried out by Coalition Forces perhaps, but what about isolation, and sooner or later, they will be on their own. If any spares are left behind, I am sure corruption etc will dwindle them down fast. Profiteering and black markets make money.

I can't see any CF EME elements doing an FRT to replace lost parts in 'Indian Country'.

I am not knocking our weapons system, but face it, with substandard troops  (I am not knocking their fighting spirit) with an AK, you can't loose a firing pin retaining pin, the firing pin, extractor and the little bits, or bend a gas tube. The 'Armalites' are not 'soldier proof' compared to the AK, and definatly not peasant mentality proofed either!

I once dealt with some PNG soldiers, who got a cleaning patch stuck in the bbl. They as a group, had tried to burn it out by putting the bbl over a fire. Peasant mentality with a Colt M16A2. You should have seen it, gathered around like some type of a sacrifical ceremony, roasting a rifle, not a beast from the J! Crazy times! At least they took the handguards off

This little gesture with the C7's is nothing but a joke, comparing it to plugging a dam with double-bubble.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Soldier54]

I'm with ya on that count Wes.  The intent to convert the ANA over to 5.56 has been in the works since 02.  The US have been looking to other countries to help them out in contributing.  CAs few C7 are a drop in the bucket compared to what the US has been providing.  We'll see where it goes.

Cheers

 

[KevinB]

I've seen some equally as unserviceable Ak's - inc several w/o bolts (hmm Mohammed, where did the bolt go?)

Iraqi SF has been using the M4's and more and more Iraqi units are going M16/M4 -- its not the end of the world -- if you can teach a troop to do drill, you can teach the M16FOW -- and a retarded monkey can build them -- its a plug and play system -- unlike amouring a number of other weapons systems.

I bet Wes you could within a week train up a platoon of very good Afghani Weapon techs to perfrom complete work on the system up to and including drilling and pinning front sight gas blocks on barrels...