Another example of the CF screwing you

[Michael Dorosh]

Overall I'd say the thing that pisses me off most about dealing with clerks, is that many NOT ALL, make it seem like they're doing you a favor, by doing their jobs. There was one guy who used to tell me I was lucky I was getting anything.........

If they didn't have those eerie powers, I'd have reacted in a less than gentlemanly fashion...........

This is all true.  Of course, it only takes one dickhead "customer" to ruin it for everyone else.  We had had knob that used to come up to the fin counter in our unit on a weekly basis demanding his printed out pay statement.  He didn't get abusive about it, just asked for one EVERY WEEK.  At that time, they weren't printed regularly, and when they were provided, we distributed them.  He didn't think he was getting it often enough.  I think at that time, this was an "extra" report aside from the paystub information you got with the physical cheque itself - and as such was considered optional.  My senior NCO in the office actually advised me to pitch the statements, if i recall correctly, because the pay stub was the "official" document.  the pay statements had more info on them, however, so we distributed them.  This was in the days before RPSR (RADTs anyone? ) and before direct deposit.

I think after hearing this dude complain each week about his missing statements, we just chucked everything on sight - so he pretty much screwed the rest of the unit.  It became a hassle pleasing one individual, so we stopped pleasing everyone in that regard.  All perfectly on the up and up as far as regs go.

As Che suggests, very often much is out of the hands of the clerks to begin with.  You get hardened to it, and perhaps that isn't right, but you don't fall over yourself giving out a bunch of "oh I'm so sorry"s mostly cause most of the time it isn't your fault and the guy who is to blame, you've never met or probably don't even know who it is.

As for January pay, as I've stated, the reserve world shuts down for most of December - now you'll know for next year not to expect a big mid-month or even end-month cheque in January.

 

[Glorified Ape]

I had pay problems during IAP and I got ulllllllllltra pissed. I mean irate, apoplectic. But who am I going to get mad at? We all just bitched to each other and that made us feel a bit better. Luckily, we had an amazing Sgt. - former combat engineer, now in logistics - who had no compunctions about jacking the crap out of the pay clerks. This guy was, quite possibly, one of the coolest people I ever had the privilege of knowing - I kid you not, he got just as angry (fuming, steamingly, frighteningly angry) as we did when our pay got messed up. This guy embodied more OLQ's and leadership principles than our entire platoon likely ever will. Having a leader like that, who actually cared about his subordinates that much that he got that pissed and pro-active was amazing. I'm not sure we could have had a better example for leadership than that sgt.

And the coolest thing was, when he wasn't fuming mad about our messed up pay, he had the best sense of humour and positive attitude you could hope for. I miss my sgt lol.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Why is it that when the Combat Arms make the slightest mistake, we're lucky if we don't end up in Service Detention Barracks. However, a clerk can constantly f**k up a Battalions worth of pay and records monthly, take weeks to sort it, pass it to someone else that's supposed to know what they're doing, and it's still screwed up? Pass it to the higher and they say "WTF? Why is this my problem? Talk to your Ajdt. They don't even get (PC here) counselled. They should be charged and fired!

On the same note, I got a ream of paperwork from the CR Clerk tonight. PEN Form, SISIP Form, Security Clearance Form, etc. "Please fill these out for my records". These are all on my file. If you want them for your records, find them yourself. Don't make me fill them out again for your convenience, PRIVATE. (actually an Able Seaman Reservist, Cl B with an Army Reserve Unit. What's up with that. We have Army Clerks here that know what's what, but can't get hired. (Not cute enough I guess   : )

 

[jmackenzie_15]

Why is it that when the Combat Arms make the slightest mistake, we're lucky if we don't end up in Service Detention Barracks. However, a clerk can constantly f**k up a Battalions worth of pay and records monthly, take weeks to sort it, pass it to someone else that's supposed to know what they're doing, and it's still screwed up? Pass it to the higher and they say "WTF? Why is this my problem? Talk to your Ajdt. They don't even get (PC here) counselled. They should be charged and fired!

Amen to that!

 

[Stefan Moxness]

it seems to me this "I'm doing you a favour" attitude is, for the most part, SOP for most clerks at any job that has anything (even vague) attachment to the government.  What is it with the relationship to the government that makes clerks hate their jobs so much that they won't either just get up and leave for something they enjoy or do their damn job right.  wouldn't that make everyone happier anyway? I mean, the clerk wouldn't have so and so fuming at him and so and so wouldn't even need to be fuming at him because the guy had done his job right!  My 0.02 cents anyway, I've always had a "soft" spot for getting angry about people who willingly take a job and won't do the damn thing right.

Be safe

 

[Fishbone Jones]

This is all true. Of course, it only takes one dickhead "customer" to ruin it for everyone else. We had had knob that used to come up to the fin counter in our unit on a weekly basis demanding his printed out pay statement. He didn't get abusive about it, just asked for one EVERY WEEK. At that time, they weren't printed regularly, and when they were provided, we distributed them. He didn't think he was getting it often enough. I think at that time, this was an "extra" report aside from the paystub information you got with the physical cheque itself - and as such was considered optional. My senior NCO in the office actually advised me to pitch the statements, if i recall correctly, because the pay stub was the "official" document. the pay statements had more info on them, however, so we distributed them. This was in the days before RPSR (RADTs anyone? ) and before direct deposit.

I think after hearing this dude complain each week about his missing statements, we just chucked everything on sight - so he pretty much screwed the rest of the unit. It became a hassle pleasing one individual, so we stopped pleasing everyone in that regard. All perfectly on the up and up as far as regs go.

As Che suggests, very often much is out of the hands of the clerks to begin with. You get hardened to it, and perhaps that isn't right, but you don't fall over yourself giving out a bunch of "oh I'm so sorry"s mostly cause most of the time it isn't your fault and the guy who is to blame, you've never met or probably don't even know who it is.

As for January pay, as I've stated, the reserve world shuts down for most of December - now you'll know for next year not to expect a big mid-month or even end-month cheque in January.

There was a time when at the beginning of the year I could ask for   X% to be taken from my pay to cover my taxes, while on Cl A. Now they want me to determine monthly how much I'll make and the taxes to be deducted. If I knew how many days a month, and that year, I'd be working, great, but in the Reserves, that's not an option. The only true way to determine your taxes, and retroactivley I might add, is to ask for a pay statement weekly and have the pay system adjust your taxes on a monthly basis based on the previous month. The fellow your ragging on for screwing everyone, was only being prudent and following the phsycotic and archaic rule laid down by the Treasury Board. Don't blame him if your job got harder because of the anal retentive bean counters in Ottawa and the Puzzle Palace. The problem is, we have to many civies working in the military. Things were fine twenty years ago till we put the Public Service to work for us.

Now, you think your pay is bad now? They're (Public Service Union) is trying to take control of the CF pension. Your really gonna get f**ked when (not if) that happens.

And it's the Clerk's job to support the Unit he's working with and the soldiers therein, not he other way around. Every trade in the military, exists for one reason. To support the Combat Arms. Without the Combat Arms there would be NO military.

 

[DAA]

Now here is a true story!

Our unit was on exercise in Wainwright years ago.  The Camp RSM points out the area that he wants my OR Tent to be set up and tells me that a truck with 2 sections of modular will be around shortly.  A clerk from another Sqn was assigned an area about 30 metres away.  The truck pulls up and drops 2 sects of complete mod at his feet, then jump back on the truck and come my way.  The boys dump 2 sects complete for me and then dismount and ask where I want it set up.  I point to the area and tell them, not a problem I can do it myself, but they refuse and set everything up for me.

Mean while the other clerk comes over and tells the guys that once they are done with mine, they can come back and do his too!

Needless to say, once they were done, they jumped on the truck and drove off, leaving the other clerk to his own demise.

So in short, you could tell who did there job in making sure the troops were looked after while asking for nothing in return and who didn't!

Oh and by the way, if you have access to the DIN (which I don't) there is a document relating to CF Service Standards for Administrative Support, which actually provides "guidelines" for response times.  Also if you walk away from your OR pissed off, that's a good indication that your people aren't doing their jobs.

 

[chrisf]

Jmackenzie...

Have you tried going to the OR, asking (Politely, as remember, you're a private) why you weren't paid, and explaining that you have bills that need to be paid, and asking if it's possible to have a cheque issued for the amount of said bills to cover you until pay day?

 

[Michael Dorosh]

recce - the clerks also have to pay an amount each month on their taxes, not a percent.  It's a huge inconvenience for all concerned and makes no sense.  I reset my taxes to zero because I can't estimate what I'll make from month to month - and hopefully it all comes out alright in April.  I'll probably have to pay about 1000 bucks.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I had pay problems during IAP and I got ulllllllllltra pissed. I mean irate, apoplectic. But who am I going to get mad at? We all just bitched to each other and that made us feel a bit better. Luckily, we had an amazing Sgt. - former combat engineer, now in logistics - who had no compunctions about jacking the crap out of the pay clerks. This guy was, quite possibly, one of the coolest people I ever had the privilege of knowing - I kid you not, he got just as angry (fuming, steamingly, frighteningly angry) as we did when our pay got messed up. This guy embodied more OLQ's and leadership principles than our entire platoon likely ever will. Having a leader like that, who actually cared about his subordinates that much that he got that pissed and pro-active was amazing. I'm not sure we could have had a better example for leadership than that sgt.

And the coolest thing was, when he wasn't fuming mad about our messed up pay, he had the best sense of humour and positive attitude you could hope for. I miss my sgt lol.

The truly funny thing is that you honestly thought the sergeant was accomplishing anything he wouldn't have by acting like a normal human being.  I suggest you do a search of this forum for "leadership" and see some of the earlier discussion as to why this approach is counter-productive.

From what you've said, he hasn't embodied a single "leadership principle".  Caring for your men is one thing, acting like a jackass is quite another.  I can guarantee you that as much as you think he accomplished with that approach in some regards, in others he probably screwed himself and a number of his troops.  **shrugs** 

 

[ackland]

From what you've said, he hasn't embodied a single "leadership principle". Caring for your men is one thing, acting like a jackass is quite another. I can guarantee you that as much as you think he accomplished with that approach in some regards, in others he probably screwed himself and a number of his troops. **shrugs**

Micheal I agree totally. Yelling and screaming is not one of the Ten Princeples of Leadership that I've seen. Being  A Senior NCO Myself I would question the need to go screaming about it. 

 

[chrisf]

And it's the Clerk's job to support the Unit he's working with and the soldiers therein, not he other way around. Every trade in the military, exists for one reason. To support the Combat Arms. Without the Combat Arms there would be NO military.

Of course, without support trades, the then combat arms couldn't function... we've all got one huge co-dependcy complex.

 

[Britney Spears]

Of course, without support trades, the then combat arms couldn't function... we've all got one huge co-dependcy complex.

We get paranoid when you guys outnumber us by so much.

 

[Danjanou]

Ok I see both sides of this issue. Not all clerks are incompetent and or trying to screw over the poor troopies. Some really give a crap and work to get the job done. Bithcing and moaning at them is at best counter productive.

Then again one thing you shouldn't do is screw over a soldiers pay. As Michael said if there were"legitimate" reasons for a delay or error then that should have been made clear. Something tells me that if there was an issue with my pay or other admin and Cpl Dorosh was my Coy Clerk, not only would he be working to rectify it, but he's be straight with me as to what was going on.

As for officers not caring about their troops welfare, well forget charging the clerk, this guy should be in Edmonton with very own set of mess tins to play with.

I dragged this out of the archives here re pay issues:

http://army.ca/forums/threads/1377/post-15952.html#msg15952

(qouted here for those not inclined to use the linky thingy)


Ok let me get this straight. You and others on your course haven't been paid and some idiot has given you a pile of bovine excrement that it has to do with not having blood types?

Please is there some Snr NCO or Officer involved with this course lurking on the forum who has seen this, and is now having a â Å“chatâ ? with whatever numpty pulled this stunt.

As Dara, RCA and others have said there is a system, sure it is often slow and inefficient but it should work and this is one thing one does not screw around with. Start using the chain of command to have this dealt with, now.

Ok war story time, so bear with me here. About 12-13 or so years ago there was a similar incident in a certain Toronto unit (no names no pack drill) They didn't have a Fin Clk, but the ad hoc system of admin clerks and what not somehow made it work. Then they got a shiny new Fin Officer trained and everything that transferred in. Well all of a sudden pay came to a screaching halt.

Now that's not a big thing for those with civy careers hey it's just beer money in the mess. But a lot of Militia, students and the like, need that cheque, and can't afford any delays. Now this particular officer and I'm not dissing females, officers, or fin types here, had a bit of an attitude. To her Reserve duty was more of a social thing. She didn't need her monthly cheque and couldn't really comprehend the fact others did.

Anyway, an unnamed CSM was advised that several of his troops hadn't been paid and in a couple of cases for some time, (1-2 months, said CSM had been away for a month on pers leave). He paid a social visit to the Finance Office and politely enquired as to what the problem was.

When he got a rather dismissive answer from a rather insincere 2/Lt, he politely enquired as to why prior to her arrival there didn't seem to be any pay problems.

The Fin Officer in question pointed out that the adhoc system the semi-trained clerks had been using was not the correct manner to do things and she had put a stop to it. As to delays in the poor (literally) soldiers pay, there was nothing, she or for that matter the CSM could do about it.

The CSM, smiled, saluted and returned to his hovel, er office and made a couple of phone calls. Then he had a wee chat with his OC and the RSM, they in turn had a wee chat with the CO. The CO was advised that the CSM had checked into things and the said unpaid soldiers, there were about a dozen, including one just recently back from a peacekeeping tour, had an appointment at a local City of Toronto Welfare office the next morning.

It appears that they may be eligible for welfare pending pay under Ontario law. Interviews had been set up and they would of course need to show up in uniform with supporting documentation. It also appeared that someone may have (not the CSM of course) called CITY TV and the Toronto Sun who in turn may have been interested in events happening the next morning.

Well the upshot is that the CO had another wee chat with his Fin Officer, and mysteriously some cheques were sent via courier to the armouries rather quickly.

Drastic measures perhaps, but effective. The moral of the story never mess with a soldier's pay and never play poker with a CSM.

 

[JAFMA]

A guy on our BMQ didn't see a cent until we were on our DP1 and he received a cheque. I believe it was in part his fault for now hassling the pay clerk, but nonetheless...it isn't really his job.

Now that is a load of BS. You as a serving member whether it be regular force or reserve, whether you are a lowly private soldier or the friggin CDS are responsible for you pay and what happens to it. So don't give me this s--t that it isn't really my job, because it is your job. You sure would be hollering when they deduct monies from you now wouldn't you.  It's your mony make sure you get it and make sure it is the right amount.

By the way this come from a guy with a fair amount of TI, Pictures and T-Shirts.

 

[George Wallace]

Too much information......my head is going to explode.

It is really fine for a Senior Serving Member to spew things.  I had that on Tour when RecceGuy and I were reminiscing of our past ups and downs and a Snr NCO stuck his nose into a calm conversation of our past trials and tribulations and condemned us of whining.  Low and behold, the tables turned and that Snr NCO nearly had an aneurysm and nervous breakdown and multiplying what he accused us of by 100 went off on a rampage through our Camp in Bosnia. 

Shit happens administration wise and the Soldier does not always catch it at the time.  I have experience two major Pay Problems in my over 25 years of service.  I am a Crewman, not a clerk.  I expect to have a clerk do their job competently and know what they are doing.  I do not expect that I am supposed to know their job too, which is what you JAFMA just layed into a new CF Member and told them to do.

I remember having to tell a Sgt (Navy) weekly something new that he had to do with my Movement Claim from Kingston to Pet.  I had to bring in my Mortgage so that the AJAG could parouse it to see if I was entitled to a claim for breaking it.  A week later, that Navy clerk told me I was not entitled to the claim as it was not in my mortgage.  I opened my mortgage and pointed to paragraph 2 on page two and said that that was what was stated there.  His response: "Oh! We didn't see that."  As a Crewman, I had more clues of what his job was than he did.  It took over a month to finalize that claim, after weekly problem solving on my part, and the good guidance of a Posting Package from CFB Kingston that layed out in laymans terms all my rights and entitlements.  By the way, one month later that Navy clerk was shown in the Petawawa Post receiving his crown.

Administrative problems do occur.  If we were all clerks and not some other trade, I suppose there would be a lot less of them, but we aren't.  Don't rag on a young, or even old, soldier about it being their duty to watch their Pay and Administrative files.  Yes, they should, but again problems do happen while they are not looking.

GW

 

[Glorified Ape]

The truly funny thing is that you honestly thought the sergeant was accomplishing anything he wouldn't have by acting like a normal human being.   I suggest you do a search of this forum for "leadership" and see some of the earlier discussion as to why this approach is counter-productive.

Where did he not act like a normal human being? The man didn't throw temper trantrums, stomp his feet, and throw things if that's what you take to characterize an extremely angry person. He was professional, through and through, and when he got angry he didn't get stupid, he got active - he took corrective measures, as he should.

From what you've said, he hasn't embodied a single "leadership principle".   Caring for your men is one thing, acting like a jackass is quite another.   I can guarantee you that as much as you think he accomplished with that approach in some regards, in others he probably screwed himself and a number of his troops.   **shrugs**  

As I said, he didn't "act like a jackass". You could tell he was fuming mad but he conducted himself appropriately with us (I can't say what he did in the office but I don't imagine he started throwing paperclips at peope). I can tell you this much: when one of us had a pay problem and he found out, that person didn't have a pay problem anymore... or at least not until we weren't under his command anymore.

Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread and I have an on-topic question:

I was told by one NCO that it's common not to receive the exact, proper amount of pay on every paycheque. One cheque you'll receive 1/4 of the proper pay, the next you'll receive 3x the proper amount - in the end it all evens out but you shouldn't expect a precise cheque very often. Is this true? I haven't had any real pay problems since September when I got back to Montreal (aside from snail-slow reimbursements) but maybe it's because I'm not in a battalion or the ROTP pay system just works better - I don't know. Thanks for the help.

 

[shadow]

One thing to remember:  dealing with departments in the CF (whether it be clerks, medics, supply techs...etc) is not the same as if you were dealing with a teller at a bank or a CSR at McDonalds.  We all work together, and our jobs are all intertwined.  These are not people who will never see you again after your one encounter.  10 years down the road you may discover that you are working together again.
It's more of a mutual relationship, and I can pretty much guarantee that if you deal with your unit clerks in a professional manner, any problems will be dealt with faster, and one day when you need something else done administratively, they will provide!

 

[bobbyf]

i have tyo chime in again........sorry

if a soldier has a problem, and they ask a clerk about it and are not satisfied, the troop should see ONE option......

Chain of Command!

although to often the CoC is only involved when there is s*** to be distributed, any worthy officer MUST saegaurd the welfare of his troops!!!!!!!

my $0.02 worth.......

.......damn, can't honour that as my pay is short AGAIN!!......... 8)

 

[DAA]

Chain of Command is fine, but it doesn't necessarily work to the members benefit in some cases.  For example Pte Jones has a pay problem and sees his/her clerk.  Pte Jones is not satisfied so complains to his Sgt/WO who complains to the Tp Ldr who complains to the Adm O, who writes a nasty letter to the PAO.  Now as you can see, the story line has just passed through 3 hands and probably as many if not more days have passed.  Hence, by the time it reaches the pay office it is not always 100% accurate and most of the time it is not what the Pte wanted in the first place.  What it does do, is get the attention of the snr pay staff.

As a former NCO IC Pay Office, I much preferred for Pte Jones' Sgt to call me and then the 2 of them come over for a sit down and sort things out then and there.  Which is not too unreasonable to ask from your Snr Pay Clerk.

Besides, in my experience, 50% of the time when someone is so pissed off about their pay, it seems to affect their hearing.

My staff on occasion used to comment "I can't believe you sat and listened to that guy complain for nearly 30 minutes! I would have gotten up and walked away!"  Well I will tell you that 30 minutes explaining something to someone, is much better that spending 10 minutes with someone 3 times a week for the next 4 weeks.  Besides, by the time we were done, everything was sorted out and he was just another happy soldier and one less return customer to worry about.

If the clerks aren't willing to put in the effort, they are just creating more work for themselves!