AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Bearpaw]

How far would the Type 702 Berlin class replenishment ships go to fulfilling the JSS requirements?

They are being produced currently(Germany has ordered a third ship) and seem to be about the right size.

 

[FSTO]

I think we should quit calling it the JSS, at this stage of the game we are getting an AOR and that is it. On the plus side, there shouldn't be a problem getting a design for it.

 

[HalfmyLife]

My question is this, could we get 3 (plus?) AOR for the price of 3 JSS (I think so) and a RO/RO type ship?

 

[FSTO]

My question is this, could we get 3 (plus?) AOR for the price of 3 JSS (I think so) and a RO/RO type ship?

More than likely get 4 AOR's and that's it. Ro/Ro or LPH would have to come seperate.

 

[HalfmyLife]

More than likely get 4 AOR's and that's it. Ro/Ro or LPH would have to come seperate.

Well at this point anything would be great, sad but true.

 

[Pud]

So just so I am clear on this, the Gov't had a certain amount of money set aside for this project but its going to cost more than what was expected so they canned the idea.  If this be the case, whats to come of the money that they originally had set aside for the project?  That should be the next question placed at their doorstep.

 

[Neill McKay]

So just so I am clear on this, the Gov't had a certain amount of money set aside for this project but its going to cost more than what was expected so they canned the idea.  If this be the case, whats to come of the money that they originally had set aside for the project?  That should be the next question placed at their doorstep.

I would imagine that they will start a new process to procure more modest vessels that fit in the budgeted amount.  (That's what this is: a budgeted amount, not an actual bag of money sitting somewhere.)

One thing I haven't seen in any of the press coverage on this issue: what's the connection between the JSS project and the Coast Guard vessels?  Nobody seems to have reported why the latter were also cancelled.

 

[NavyShooter]

Ok,

So I guess my take on this is, if the "At home" bidders have now been eliminated from the project....does that mean that they can go elsewhere and COTS a ship from somewhere else?

I mean, that'd allow us to fast-track the purchase somewhat, no?

NavyShooter

 

[GAP]

I think it was mentioned here already, but the concept the Australians used seemed to keep the costs down....

 

[FSTO]

Ok,

So I guess my take on this is, if the "At home" bidders have now been eliminated from the project....does that mean that they can go elsewhere and COTS a ship from somewhere else?

I mean, that'd allow us to fast-track the purchase somewhat, no?

NavyShooter

Fast track and Canadian military procurement are two terms that are never used in the same sentence.

 

[geo]

Shooter....
all this is saying is that the project, as presented, was too rich for the Government to swallow.
The gov't/Navy can either return to the contractors with a slimmed down wish list and consider new proposals from Cdn shipyards OR
they can obtain plans from a foreign design & work on technology exchange - having the ships built in Canada OR
they can obtain plans and ships from foreign sources.... which won't fly too well with the Electorate BUT might fly on a principle of austerity.

 

[FSTO]

Ex-D - Partisanship aside, this is pretty inexcusable. And you know as well as the rest of us that "the Liberals" didn't design JSS. The real test will be how quickly a plan B comes around. If there is no plan B, then this is just a desperate budgetary measure. Alternately, someone realized that a comparable ship could be bought from a foreign shipyard for much less. Only time will tell.

From the CMS website: http://maritime.mil.ca/english/cmssuite/jul/jul2008/21-25/RDIMS_151407.doc
Dated 20 July 08
First Paragraph

1. The procurement challenges associated with the Joint Support Ship (JSS) Project suggest that the current phase will soon be completed.  While the government has made no decisions to limit its options to pursue either an onshore or offshore procurement, it is prudent for us to begin to examine a range of options to better inform future decision-making regarding our path forward in addressing this essential operational requirement.
The Navy has known for quite some time that this could happen and they were already out looking for other options. I just hope that they have shelved the idea of an "all in one ship".
Also of note, after 2010 or maybe 2015 at the latest, our AOR's will not be allowed into anybody's territorial waters because of their single hulls. So to coin a term from the PM we'll be forced to fish or cut bait if we want this capability.

That it has come to this point is a reflection of absolute maze of BS that government procurement has become. Why PWGSC is even involved is crazy, TB should set out the rules, the departments abide by them. The department makes their case to the cabinet and get approved or rejected based on needs and monetary concerns. Also the political parties and bureaucrats HAVE to come together on a way ahead for our military. There has to be an agreement between Harper-Dion-Layton-Deuceppe and yes even Lizzy-Mae on what kind of military/coast guard/customs enforcement do we need and what kind of equipment do we require to carry out this mandate. Then a change in government does not mean a wholesale change of procurement and roles. For example Australia (why do they seem to be a template of what works? except for Seasprite and Collins) had a change of government but there was no (it appears) no real change in government policy when it comes to the ADF. If they can do it why have we so crapped the bed when it comes to things like national security?

 

[aesop081]

For example Australia (why do they seem to be a template of what works?)

Hardly........Go look up how things went with the super seasprite program for one example.......

 

[Sub_Guy]

Hardly........Go look up how things went with the super seasprite program for one example.......

After you are done reading that, have a good look at the Collins class project.  At least the submarines are in service now, but it was a long bumpy road to get them there. 

 

[FSTO]

Hardly........Go look up how things went with the super seasprite program for one example.......

Nobody is perfect, but we had a fully booted and spurred Saint John Shipbuilding yard with a trained and experienced workforce. We knew that our AOR's, 280's, Entire Coast Guard fleet needed to be replaced within the next 20 years and we pissed it all away.

 

[aesop081]

This is like a family of 5 going shopping for a new set of wheels.

The family's budget is $35 000 and they want a large SUV.

Toyota has a model that meets the requirements but its $40 000

Ford has one as well but its $39 000

Chevy has one but its $42 000

All of the large SUV models that the family needs are above the maximum that can be spent. What is the family to do ?

They go home and review their requirements.

Turns out that a mini-van will fullfil all the requirements that family has but at a lower cost ( doesnt have as much LCF and some bells & wistles) that is within the $35 000 budget.

 

[Snafu-Bar]

You missed an option...

Save up till you CAN afford one.  ;D

 

[aesop081]

Save up till you CAN afford one.  ;D

We dont have that kind of time. We are the family whos car doesnt start and cant pass the safety inspection anymore.

Either we spend within budget or we cut something else. With a military that needs so much....i dont think we have anything left to cut that would produce enough money.

 

[Neill McKay]

This is like a family of 5 going shopping for a new set of wheels.

The family's budget is $35 000 and they want a large SUV.

Toyota has a model that meets the requirements but its $40 000

Ford has one as well but its $39 000

Chevy has one but its $42 000

All of the large SUV models that the family needs are above the maximum that can be spent. What is the family to do ?

They go home and review their requirements.

Turns out that a mini-van will fullfil all the requirements that family has but at a lower cost ( doesnt have as much LCF and some bells & wistles) that is within the $35 000 budget.

That's an excellent explanation.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

You missed an option...

Save up till you CAN afford one.  ;D

I am glad you're amused by the possible loss of a much needed capability for the Navy to deploy... :