Are Armed Forces demonstration teams relevent?

[Armymedic]

Interesting question. The commentator asks several good questions. Lets debate them here.

Here is the link and the entire editorial.

http://www.tbsource.com/Editorials/index.asp?cid=76820

Editorials
One Man's Opinion - Snowbirds
Rick Smith
Web Posted: 8/25/2005 1:58:50 PM 
 

In 1972, Snowbird Capt. Lloyd Waterer died during an air show in Trenton. He was 25. In 1978, Capt. Gordon deJong, 32 years old, died during an air show in Grande Prairie, Alberta. In 1989, 24 year old Capt. Shane Antaya died during an air show in Toronto. In 1998, Capt. Michael VanderBos, 29, died while rehearsing for a show. In 2004, Capt. Miles Selby died in a fiery collision while training for a show. During that same time there were five other Snowbird collisions that resulted in minor injuries or were injury free. Thunder Bay's incident makes it six and, to our profound relief, we can put this on an injury-free list.

But a young man was perhaps seconds away from death and his Tutor jet was yards away from slamming into someone's home â “ for what? To entertain. And, yes, there are some manoeuvres the Snowbirds go through during their shows that could be considered training for combat flying but the bottom line is â “ it's Showbiz, Entertainment, and an important part of their recruitment drive.

Once more the question will be asked â “ Should our military continue to risk the lives of these fine young men and the potential loss of the lives of many on the ground â “ for the purpose of amusing an audience? The folks in Thunder Bay have a special reason to participate in the debate.


This is Rick Smith and That's One Man's Opinion

 

[HollywoodHitman]

I think they're a great part of a Country's identity. It's a way to showcase the talents of the military and provide the public with a window into what these teams do.

The demo teams should however, in the case of the Snowbirds, use equipment that we use Operationally, which would be the CF18, rather than the much older and Operationally insignificant Tudor.

Members of the military die. Fact. People die walking across the street. Theres alot to be said about that happening while someone is doing something they love. They know the risks, but they take them anyway.

I think it would dishonour the memories of the team members who have died doing their jobs, to suddenly deem the existence of the Demo Teams, unneccessary. Discounting their importance and shutting them down would truly mean they died for nothing. 

 

[mover1]

Demo teams consist of volunteers.

No one is putting anyone at risk.

 

[aesop081]

The demo teams should however, in the case of the Snowbirds, use equipment that we use Operationally, which would be the CF18, rather than the much older and Operationally insignificant Tudor.

The pilot on my crew is a former snowbird.  We were talking about this just yesterday.  The CF-188s deemed too costly to operate in the airshow role.  The fact that the tutor is relatively slow is the reson some of the maneouvres that they do can be done.  Even a change to the Hawk would bring significant changes to the team's routine.  The CF-188 also has the drawback of being a single seater.  The second seat of the Tutor is where the techs  ride from show to show.  IMHO, the snowbirds are better off with a quieter type than with a big and noisy fighter type.  I have seen the USAF Tunderbirds, the USN Blue Angels and the RAF Red Arrows as well and the smaller trainer types are much more enjoyable.  As those are less costly to operat we canh have teams of more aircraft which makes for a more impressive show.  The Blue angels have to travel with a USMC C-130 ( "fat albert") to carry their techs, i think the CAF would be hard pressed to do the same and the CF-188B's are required for other things than airshows.

As far as getting rid of the team, IMHO, that would be a grave error.  To me it is not only a recruitng tool/ PR tool but also something for CF pilots to aspire to.  The pilots i have spoken to that have been on the team describe it as the best flying of their career and they worked hard to get there.  The snowbirds are , IMHO, a powerful motivator for pilots to be the best at their game.  Alot of army guys deplore the loss of the CAR as leaving very little for young soldiers to strive for, lets not do the same to the airforce comunity.

My $0.02

 

[mdh]

As far as getting rid of the team, IMHO, that would be a grave error.  To me it is not only a recruitng tool/ PR tool but also something for CF pilots to aspire to.

Aesop081 hits the nail on the head. The Snowbirds are probably the one PR tool that showcases the CF that the public recognizes and relates to - I can't think of another equivalent with the exception of naval visits to cities. Predictably, we're seeing the usual Gradgrinds decrying the"dangers" involved with little consideration to the overarching benefits achieved by the team.  When you tally up the total hours flown by the team compared to the accident rate - I'm confident it would be a reasonable stat from a risk analysis point of view.  It seems some people just want to make the country into a bland, dull and safe place - why bother leaving the crib?

cheers, mdh

 

[swanita]

I agree with both mdh & aesop081. To some the Snowbirds & demo teams may seem useless but they get the military into the public eye showcasing some of their talents. It would be a shame to see them go.

 

[Armymedic]

Lets open this up to things like the:

Skyhawks,
Army and Navy Gun race teams, and
LDSH Riding Troop.

All teams with no real operational requirement, but who show the face of the CF to the public.

 

[paracowboy]

but who show the face of the CF to the public.

and therein, a good thing. The more they see us, the better. It's harder for them to continue to elect those who squander us if they make some real connections to us. We should go door to door and introduce ourselves across the nation.
"Hello, my name is Bill, and I'll be your infantryman today. Please tell the gov't to give us more money."

 

[Lima_Oscar]

My 2 cents:

I believe that the relevance of demonstration teams does not lie in the demonstration itself but the process of training those teams.   Yes, it is a demonstration to our citizens and to the world that we have a credible and capable forces. Not only does it demonstrate that we as a country has excellent and talented individuals that can perform extordinary acts; it is also a demonstration of our capacity of service and support and technical expertise (i.e. our resource). However in addition to the demonstration, the real purpose (in my opinion) is to motivate the forces as a whole to strive for perfection and excellence.   Having demonstration teams is one of the tools to inspire and motivate us to be best as what we do. The existence of demonstration teams can act as a venue for us to train to be the best.

*Edit: Spelling

 

[paracowboy]

AND it's a sweet scam that we can all aspire to!

 

[Cloud Cover]

"Hello, my name is Bill, and I'll be your infantryman today. Please tell the gov't to give us more money."

Well Bill, it's nice to meet you. I'm Mrs. Lipshitz. Is that an M72 LAW in your pants or are you just happy to see me?   Well now, aren't you the healthy young specimen? What? Of course I'll buy some apples from you, $5 worth just like the air cadets. What? No, I will not bobfor them? What? Wash your mouth, young man and what are you doing with that fork and cell phone? That's disgusting!!
Thank you, run along now and go scare the shit out of my neighbour. Bye now. Mind the grass now, and take my hedge out of your helmet. Toodles.

That Bill, he such a nice infantryman. I think I'll write a letter to his boss to give him some more money.    

 

[paracowboy]

Well Bill, it's nice to meet you. I'm Mrs. Lipshitz. Is that an M72 LAW in your pants or are you just happy to see me?   Well now, aren't you the healthy young specimen? What? Of course I'll buy some apples from you, $5 worth just like the air cadets. What? No, I will not bobfor them? What? Wash your mouth, young man and what are you doing with that fork and cell phone? That's disgusting!!
Thank you, run along now and go scare the crap out of my neighbour. Bye now. Mind the grass now, and take my hedge out of your helmet. Toodles.

That Bill, he such a nice infantryman. I think I'll write a letter to his boss to give him some more money.    

Funniest. Post. Ever.

 

[Gunner98]

RCMP Musical Ride, Golden Helmets - OPP

With rising gas prices you don't hear a call for the demise of these two demo teams?

Going door to door or city to city - fighting fires, floods or digging out after a snowstorm or windstorm.

Perhaps we could sell commercial advertising attached to banners behind the Snowbirds or slapped on the sides of the Sea King.  It works for NASCAR and the Alcohol and Tobacco companies and they result in more deaths than the wonderful Snowbirds or Skyhawks.

 

[Spr.Earl]

Can see it now "This Bridge Blown by 3 Tp,1 C.E.R." on a big ribbon as she goes sky high. ;D

 

[paracowboy]

Can see it now "This Bridge Blown by 3 Tp,1 C.E.R." on a big ribbon as she goes sky high.

I'd pay to see that! That's just good family entertainment, right there.

 

[c4th]

RCMP Musical Ride, Golden Helmets - OPP

With rising gas prices you don't hear a call for the demise of these two demo teams?

Possibly the costs are offset by the declining prices for oats.  Equally perplexing:  Why there is there not a call to trade the horses in for the operationally relevant Crown Vics.  They would be much louder and faster.

 

[Slim]

On a side note

I know for a fact that the LdSH(RC) Mounted Troop does not receive any additioonal money for its activities from DND.

The money to keep it going is made through donatioons from the regt. accociation and tour bookings in the summer time.

As for demonstariaghtion teams in the CF. Disbanding any of them would be a serious mistake.

Also if you read the articles coming out of the mdia, its not DND that's "talking" about getting rid of anything, but the media doing what they do best...Stirring sh*t and hoping to sell more papers.

My hat is off to the Snowbirds...To the media I take off something else.

Slim

 

[marlene]

I agree with Slim. Hats off to the Snowbirds - as far as I can see the media is just trying to stir up trouble. I think the demo teams are very relevant. If it wasn't for the Snowbirds - sad but true - there's a good deal of Canadians that wouldn't even know we had a military. They're an integral part of the DND that create awareness at the very least and hopefully pride at best.

merlane

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

i understand the views shared here but I think the Snowbirds do a great service to the CF, shows the talent and skill levels that  our pilots are capable of doing.
The techs show another skill level , how well they can keep 60s vintage aircraft flying. But that  is no longer a skill level in the CF it is a trade level training, antique aircraft, QL18, they are the same course standards needed to maintain and fly  the SeaKIng, the SAR helicopters and the other aging aircraft in our fleet.

All joking aside i have been involved in airshows as person who went to watch and enjoy  the machines and the displays, as i got older I was working as an unpaid staff member. So i got to see behind the closed doors. Other airforces have always saidd give the Snowbirds a real sleek, up powered jet and they  would blow the socks off any other team flying.

The CF 18 would be a good choice, sure it is more costly  to fly, they are mothballing how many  of them because they cannot afford the upgrades in electronics?  Take the mothballed fleet and give the Snowbirds  enough to equip the team, they  could put on a much better show. As for crew and techs who ride along in the jets now, use one of the  Canadian made prop planes, they use for training navigators or anothe aircraft available.
I think the CF is owed the respect of flying and using at least 20 year old equipment vice the 40 plus year old relics they use now.

 

[The Bread Guy]

WRT the media, I have as much of an axe to grind as many here re:  media focus, bias and accuracy, but to be fair, a civilian with no idea about the military looking at the following facts in isolation might wonder the merits of keep the team around:

- 14 accidents since 1972;
- 6 pilots killed;
- 30 year old planes not (apparently) used anywhere else in the CF. 

Yes, they do high performance work.  Yes, there's high risk.  Yes, the accident rate may be pretty darned low compared to hours flown & envelope pushed.  Yes, they create a professional, visible, identifiable icon for the CF.  Still, I don't think it's unfair asking the question.

How's this for a solution without reinventing the wheel?

The Royal Aussie Air Force aerobatic team, the Roulettes, apparently went thru a series of equipment woes with various types of planes.  In 1989, they settled on using the Pilatus PC-9 trainer (which they already used for general flight training) for the demo team.  As for spares, they apparently painted EVERY trainer in the Air Force in the Roulettes colour scheme, so they can mix and match without too much fuss and on short notice.

Since we have Hawks in the system now, would it make sense to buy a few more, paint everybody in the same colour scheme and have a ready-made pool for the new, improved Snowbirds?

For more info.....

RAAF Roulettes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roulettes
Official Site
http://www.defence.gov.au/raaf/roulettes/

Pilatus PC-9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilatus_PC-9
http://www.defence.gov.au/raaf/roulettes/aircraft.htm