Are Corporals shown the respect they deserve by subordinates & superiors?

[Old Sweat]

And that highlights what I'm talking about.

Until we "fix" the system whereby posns are no longer Pte/Cpl ... and differentiate between work area of 2 seperate ranks again ... they'll continue to be "co-workers" first and foremost. I can put Cpl X in charge of all I want within that section, but the day that Cpl X tries to "actually" administer or counsel "co-worker Pte X" (ie his best friend and co-worker vice his 'actual' subordinate) - the fur would be flying ... somtimes it's worse than two chicks in bikinis in a mud-wrassle gone horribly wrong.

Vern et al

I fear that if we separate positions, then we face the possibility of a cap being placed on the number of corporals that can be paid. This lowers the stagnation in rank another level and brings up the possibility of a merit list for privates. But I am an oldfaret, what do I know?

As for the mud-wrassling, it's no good without the pictures. (Unless one is an active participant, or so I have been told!)

 

[George Wallace]

As for the mud-wrassling, it's no good without the pictures. (Unless one is an active participant, or so I have been told!)

You don't go by the Code Name "Blue" do you?

 

[Jungle]

somtimes it's worse than two chicks in bikinis in a mud-wrassle gone horribly wrong.

How could that scenario possibly go wrong ?!?

 

[Rigger052]

  I have personally found that respect from the subordinate side of the house is very much a two way street. The leadership principles I learned on my JLC/JNCO have been very good at helping me stay effective when put into the leadership role. By treating my peers and subordinates with respect and adhering to these principals I've had no problems with anyone who has worked with/for me on any projects. Going hand in hand with this, meeting project deadlines with little to no issues makes my superiors happy and giving clients what they've requested WRT phones or computers tends to make them happy.

  We've all seen the various examples of pers that do deserve more respect, or less as the case may be, and the issue of pay ... well I'll never turn down MORE money ;D. I've seen some good people fail a PLQ, and some very poor one's pass, it sucks either way but that's life in the military. My point is that this topic doesn't seem to be one where you can generalize ALL CF Cpl's in terms of respect, as some do deserve it and some don't. Just my  :2c: for what it's worth.

 

[time expired]

You younguns just don't get it,Cpls.have no subordinates,he is what we in the old
Army used to call a Trained Soldier and unless he is given temporary authority by a
superior like in"Cpl Bloggs,your in charge"he has no authority.
This was established in a directive from NDHQ that was published in standing orders
sometime in 1968.possibly something has changed but I have heard nothing  that
would suggest that.So unless the CF has made adjustments to the rank structure
most of this discussion is irrelevant.
                                            Regards

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I have 20 years in.  I am no youngin.  Perhaps you need to re-read the QR & O definition of superior officer.

Cpl's have subordinates.  Cpl's can give lawful commands.  Cpls are higher than the rank of Private in the CF rank structure.

If Pte Bloggins gets an order from a Cpl, its an order from a superior officer IAW the NDA.  Full stop.

I have no idea what you are on, but you probably shouldn't operate heavy machinery today.

 

[George Wallace]

You younguns just don't get it,Cpls.have no subordinates,he is what we in the old
Army used to call a Trained Soldier and unless he is given temporary authority by a
superior like in"Cpl Bloggs,your in charge"he has no authority.
This was established in a directive from NDHQ that was published in standing orders
sometime in 1968.possibly something has changed but I have heard nothing  that
would suggest that.So unless the CF has made adjustments to the rank structure
most of this discussion is irrelevant.
                                            Regards

I have to agree with EITS.  That is right out of it.  Cpls have been in charge of many different functions, duties, tasks, etc. since 1968.  I suppose you have never heard of the concept of "Delegated Authority" which in some instances will give a person more authority than any rank would have.  When a Cpl acting as a "Safety" person on a Range, aircraft, rappel site, or where ever, gives a command, even Generals would have to obey.

 

[CallOfDuty]

..you are absolutely right EITS..technically.  But really, do you see it happening day to day?  I see corporals more-so as senior Ptes who act as mentors, not necessarily bosses.  Well, the good ones anyway.
    PS---EITS---Hows course going???

 

[Eye In The Sky]

But really, do you see it happening day to day?  I see corporals more-so as senior Ptes who act as mentors, not necessarily bosses.  Well, the good ones anyway.

Actually, yes I do and I have for many years.  I've seen crews where the CC was a Cpl, and so was the Dvr.  There was never any question on who was in command in those cases.  I've worked at TSS where there was all Cpls in the Tp, but only one was the floor Cpl and everyone did what he said.  That was just professional.  Not everyone gets to be the boss, but someone has to be.

I can think of many times where people of equal rank are subordindate or superior to peers (in rank).  Cpls, Capts, Sgts.  I was Crse WO for a 3s course, but had a Sgt with WAY more TI than I did as my Trg Sgt.  Just the way it works.  Anyone who can't work for someone unless they are a rank higher (i.e. be a dickhead to someone appointed NCO I/C of a group of peers) is lacking something on the professional/military deportment side.  IMO.

PS---EITS---Hows course going???

Goin' good. 

 

[Kat Stevens]

I was one of those lifer Cpls everyone automatically assumes is completely useless because he never got promoted.  Read any of my PERs and you'll see differently.  In 19 years at that rank, I occupied damn near every seat in an engineer squadron that an NCM can sit in, including SSM for a few crazy days in the Y2K flinch.  I have operated and crew commanded AEVs and AVLBS.  I have been in charge of prepping an entire armoured engineer troop for rail transport.  I have instructed driver wheel, driver track, comms, and MAT at various levels.  I have been a summer incremental instructor at CFSME 3 times.  I have been a DA holder for millions of dollars worth of equipment. The worst part of being a Cpl is that you're qualified enough to fill in for anyone, teach anything, and complete most tasks reliably, but you're still "just a Cpl".  This is a direct quote I got from a young Lt who came to my troop in June of one year, and was in the field with us 2 months later; "What the fuck do you know about mechanized engineer ops, you're just a lifer Cpl."  THAT sums up the attitude of higher toward Cpls.  No backing from the top= no respect from below...QED
 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Kat,

Maybe the young Lt thought that but...obviously alot (sounds like MOST) of the folks in your CoC thought differently...based on all the seats you filled over the years. 

I'd bet that young green Lt musta had that said to him by some Sgts, WOs, the Sgt-Major, Capts and other people when he tried one of his "why don't we do it like this" speeches  :blotto:

The whole "your just a *insert rank here* can be said of any rank.  I found most of the people who had an attitude like that were the ones who didn't like seeing natual leadership abilities in their subordinates...mostly because they didn't have them and felt inferior for it.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Damn Kat, I would go to war with you any day...... and wouldn't mind having you in my back pocket......

 

[FastEddy]

I was one of those lifer Cpls everyone automatically assumes is completely useless because he never got promoted.  Read any of my PERs and you'll see differently.  In 19 years at that rank, I occupied damn near every seat in an engineer squadron that an NCM can sit in, including SSM for a few crazy days in the Y2K flinch.  I have operated and crew commanded AEVs and AVLBS.  I have been in charge of prepping an entire armoured engineer troop for rail transport.  I have instructed driver wheel, driver track, comms, and MAT at various levels.  I have been a summer incremental instructor at CFSME 3 times.  I have been a DA holder for millions of dollars worth of equipment. The worst part of being a Cpl is that you're qualified enough to fill in for anyone, teach anything, and complete most tasks reliably, but you're still "just a Cpl".  This is a direct quote I got from a young Lt who came to my troop in June of one year, and was in the field with us 2 months later; "What the frig do you know about mechanized engineer ops, you're just a lifer Cpl."  THAT sums up the attitude of higher toward Cpls.  No backing from the top= no respect from below...QED

Well that's a pretty impressive Military PERs and combined with long Service, it leaves me scratching  what hair I have left why you  weren't promoted to CSM or at least S/Sgt. , sounds like you should have.

Cheers.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Was never going to happen, I made too many enemies with long memories when I was a young guy with an admitted poor attitude toward the political game.  Other guys played it better than me, no regrets, I had a good career, and it's all mind over matter.  Those who matter don't mind, and those who mind don't matter.

 

[George Wallace]

Well that's a pretty impressive Military PERs and combined with long Service, it leaves me scratching  what hair I have left why you  weren't promoted to CSM or at least S/Sgt. , sounds like you should have.

Cheers.

As you well know, not all Trades are equal.  Cbt Arms are not like so many other Trades where one can be promoted before they are qualified.  Various biases also come into play in the Cbt Arms Trades, where often an older more mature soldier would be passed over for promotion for various reasons: age, the Unit wants a mature member to mentor their peers, promotions are frozen, etc.  Unlike some Purple Trades where members are 'rewarded' with Spec Pay and promotions as Acting/Lacking, the Cbt Arms kept their principles........to some extent.  Politics is always there, in any Merit Board. 

 

[time expired]

No need to get personal ,I was merely trying to point out the reason there seems
to so much obvious confusion about the Cpl. rank.Prior to unification one spent about
3 to5 years as a Pte.went on a Jnr.NCO course then waited for a vacancy and was
then promoted to Cpl.Ones life changed ,first one joined the Cpl`s Mess,if you were
single you moved into a single room, as a Cpl. you were expected to keep a little
distance to your old buddies.In this system there was no question about your
authority and nobody refered to you as just a Cpl.
Mr. Hellyer, for reasons best know to himself, created the so called  Hellyer Cpl.,the
old Cpl`s were herded into the Mens mess and all their privileges were stripped
away as well as their authority,many understandably quit.
This created great confusion,the new Hellyer Cpl`s went about trying to order the
few remaining Pte`s around,some of the old Cpl`s tried to reestablish their lost
authority over people wearing the same rank badges. Discipline suffered as one
can imagine,S/Nco`s and officers tended to ignore the Cpl. rank as they never
knew whether or not they were dealing with someone with leadership qualities
or not and I feel some of this attitude remain today,judging by what I am reading
in this thread,.
The CF, in an attempt to solve this problem ,published the directive I refer ed to in
my last post.It stated that the Cpl. had no authority inherent in the rank and that
the appointment of M/Cpl. was the first rank with command authority.
                                                Regards

 

[mariomike]

You were soldiering when I was still a toddler, Sergeant! 

 

[CallOfDuty]

..good post time expired.  Makes it pretty cut and dry I'd say.  I work with quite a few old corporals who refer back to the day...( early to mid 70's).....to when Corporals were GOD.  No joke.  They were scared to death of the Corporals.
  However; those days are gone and for the most part the guys....even the old ones, like it this way.  From my experience I should add.

COD

 

[OldSolduer]

Cpl was the best rank I ever held. A good cpl is worth 3 mediocre MCpls and several poor Lts.

"only a cpl", that phrase should be forbidden.

 

[FastEddy]

No need to get personal ,I was merely trying to point out the reason there seems
to so much obvious confusion about the Cpl. rank.Prior to unification one spent about
3 to5 years as a Pte.went on a Jnr.NCO course then waited for a vacancy and was
then promoted to Cpl.Ones life changed ,first one joined the Cpl`s Mess,if you were
single you moved into a single room, as a Cpl. you were expected to keep a little
distance to your old buddies.In this system there was no question about your
authority and nobody refered to you as just a Cpl.
Mr. Hellyer, for reasons best know to himself, created the so called  Hellyer Cpl.,the
old Cpl`s were herded into the Mens mess and all their privileges were stripped
away as well as their authority,many understandably quit.
This created great confusion,the new Hellyer Cpl`s went about trying to order the
few remaining Pte`s around,some of the old Cpl`s tried to reestablish their lost
authority over people wearing the same rank badges. Discipline suffered as one
can imagine,S/Nco`s and officers tended to ignore the Cpl. rank as they never
knew whether or not they were dealing with someone with leadership qualities
or not and I feel some of this attitude remain today,judging by what I am reading
in this thread,.
The CF, in an attempt to solve this problem ,published the directive I refer ed to in
my last post.It stated that the Cpl. had no authority inherent in the rank and that
the appointment of M/Cpl. was the first rank with command authority.
                                                Regards

That's exactly how it was, Rank had Authority and Privileges. You stood to attention when addressing a L/Cpl and God Forbide you omitted addressing him by his Rank.
Corporals were mostly Sargent's in waiting (Sargent's, as we all knew ran the Army). Corporals were the last line of Command to get things done and done right.

There were L/Cpl's without pay and with pay and the appointment was useally canceled when personnel were Posted from Unit to Unit. (but this was useally just a Adm. thing but the with pay depended on the Org. of the new Unit.

From L/Cpl to Cpl it could be Acting with or without pay , again depending on the Unit and Part II Orders.

Then the Jr NCO's course , Candidates were sent to another Corps School (preferably the School of Infantry) but useally a Base Unit or School with a current starting course.

On successfully completing this course (8 to 15 wks) you then could be posted in Rank (confirmed), which now meant that you were paid in rank and that rank and pay could only be reduced from disciplinary actions. Unless you elected even in Corps or Trade Transfers or Postings you maintained your Rank and Pay.  8)

Life was good and you were on your way. The Corporals Mess was just a comfortable and decorative as the Sargent's Mess, but we only served Beer and Wine. In quarters we occupied the Cubicles at the end of the "H" Huts and a Single Bed. Of course on clean ups and inspections we only Supervised  :

In the Mess Hall, there were separate 8ft tables with chairs, white table clothes and cutlery place settings along with Mugs and Glasses, all you had to bring was your meal plate.

As opposed to the  Privates, Bare 8ft. Tables & Bench's bringing your Knife,Fork,Spoon Combo and Cup, which you washed on Exit.

Cheers.