Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)

[PuckChaser]

Sometimes the good idea train ends with the rails running off a cliff. The way we were explained it, MES was born from MOSART. When MOSART died, some civvies lost their jobs and some staff officers retired because they staked their careers on it. The ones that stayed in, created MES to do the same thing.

We're just shuffling people around, and not fixing the underlying retention/recruiting problems and the old material in the training system.

 

[LineJumper]

Sometimes the good idea train ends with the rails running off a cliff. The way we were explained it, MES was born from MOSART. When MOSART died, some civvies lost their jobs and some staff officers retired because they staked their careers on it. The ones that stayed in, created MES to do the same thing.

We're just shuffling people around, and not fixing the underlying retention/recruiting problems and the old material in the training system.

and a whole lot more that can't be said that I agree with....

 

[Swingline1984]

I've heard plenty of people who are in the zone talk about retiring over this initiative.  It will be interesting to see if they are true to their word.  I've heard retention used as one of the reasons for the amalgamation; does anyone know exactly what part of this gong show is actually attractive?

 

[PuckChaser]

There isn't much that's super attractive to the people that are already serving. There also isn't much that's attractive to potential recruits: Everyone wants to make that extra few dollars that Spec Pay gives, and we won't be getting it for the foreseeable future. Apparently, since we're all going to be super-signallers, sub occupation pers can move over and do the job of a core ACISS person. This might be alright for a section commander and up, but if I'm in a TacRad det overseas, I don't want some Cpl who's been sitting in a server farm for 5 years who did a watered down DP1. According to CFSCE, SigOps have the longest QL3 package (if you don't add POET to LCIS). How can you possibly teach someone to be a SigOp, Lineman, and LCIS Tech in 75 training days?

We're about to create a trade of people who require maximum supervision to do Pte level tasks until they get their DP2 course, which is at least 3 years into their careers. The strain and stress won't be on the MES managers and Career Managers, it will be borne by the MCpl and Sgt supervisors.

 

[REDinstaller]

And according to the presenter on Thursday the timeline for a new recruit will run like this. DP1 75 trg days then off to a CMBG Sigs Sqn for a 1-2 yr OJT period followed by the 25 day DP2 common course. Then they will be sent out to the Cbt Arms units as ACISS, but will not have completed any specialty trg. Which would be fine if you are just looking at filling CP posns, but if you require CST's then you get a warm body and nothing more. CST posns need to be filled at the lowest lvl by pers that can be employable at Cbt Arms units without resorting to micromanagement.

 

[PiperDown]

. In the case of the latter, what will happen is all former LCIS QL5+ mbrs will continue to receive their current pay until promotion or IPCs take them past it.

So a LCIS tech Cpl (spec 1) , incentive 4 at $5362 a month who looses spec pay will have to wait until he is promoted WO (standard) at $5728 to receive his first pay raise....  ( A Sgt IPC 4 in the standard pay bracket receives $5351)

NICE !

 

[Sig_Des]

And according to the presenter on Thursday the timeline for a new recruit will run like this. DP1 75 trg days then off to a CMBG Sigs Sqn for a 1-2 yr OJT period followed by the 25 day DP2 common course. Then they will be sent out to the Cbt Arms units as ACISS, but will not have completed any specialty trg. Which would be fine if you are just looking at filling CP posns, but if you require CST's then you get a warm body and nothing more. CST posns need to be filled at the lowest lvl by pers that can be employable at Cbt Arms units without resorting to micromanagement.

Not to mention without changing the manning at out-unit levels. So now, when you currently have people double-hatting as CP Operators as well as handling low-unit IS helpdesk, how are you going to seperate sub-trade differences in the APS position filling?

 

[REDinstaller]

So a LCIS tech Cpl (spec 1) , incentive 4 at $5362 a month who looses spec pay will have to wait until he is promoted WO (standard) at $5728 to receive his first pay raise....  ( A Sgt IPC 4 in the standard pay bracket receives $5351)

NICE !

I know Rob, its quite the kick in the ass, but that is worst case scenario. Best case we continue to keep getting promoted with it.

 

[bradinsudbury]

Hey everyone,

I apologize for the "Newbie-ness" (is that a word? if not, I think it should be!!) of this post, but this thread caught my attention since SigOp is my first trade choice and Lineman is my second choice as I look ahead to FY11.

I am just wondering if someone could "dumb this down"  a bit and give me, in a nutshell, what this trade amalgamation will mean to a new recruit going forward?

1) How will this affect the first training out of BMQ
2) Will this lead to more or less opportunities in the trade
and
3) What kind of affect will the trade amalgamation have on career progression/postings?

I recognize from reading the posts on this thread that there seem to be a lot of unknowns, so feel free to speculate and postulate for me! (just go easy one the acronyms and abbreviations! I haven't had "Military Abbreviations 101" yet!  )

Thanks a lot.
:yellow:

 

[PuckChaser]

1) How will this affect the first training out of BMQ

No new QL3 courses will start at CFSCE after 17 Dec 2010. If you get on a course before that, you will be qualified and grandfathered in the old trades. If you don't, then you'll be loaded on the new trade DP1 starting sometime after 3 Jan 2011.

2) Will this lead to more or less opportunities in the trade

No one has any idea at the "people being effected" level. I'm sure there's a small idea somewhere at the MES implementation team level, but it doesn't make sense to the rest of us.

3) What kind of affect will the trade amalgamation have on career progression/postings?

ACISS Core is said to be able to progress faster through the ranks as there are numerically more positions available. Postings will happen regardless. Everything else is really up in the air, however it will be easier for a new recruit such as yourself to jump into the new trade and figure it out. Those of us that have been in for close to a decade or longer, have a lot of the structure to unlearn.

 

[zzyzx723]

No new QL3 courses will start at CFSCE after 17 Dec 2010. If you get on a course before that, you will be qualified and grandfathered in the old trades. If you don't, then you'll be loaded on the new trade DP1 starting sometime after 3 Jan 2011.

According to the course calendar on CFSCE's website, all Sig OP QL3 courses have been cancelled for the rest of the year - unless they are "un-cancelled" or new ones are created, it looks like the course that started two weeks ago is the last true SigOp course that will be run.

Again, this is according to the course calendar on the CFSCE site, but it has been very wrong in the past so don't take it as gospel truth, just passing along the info.

 

[PuckChaser]

The date I got was from the CFSCE FoS. There's at least 150 SigOps and 150 LCIS on PAT right now, not including the LCIS students who have started POET. If they've stopped training, we're going to be in a hurt locker for new blood in the C&E Branch for years to come.

 

[Sig_Des]

The date I got was from the CFSCE FoS. There's at least 150 SigOps and 150 LCIS on PAT right now, not including the LCIS students who have started POET. If they've stopped training, we're going to be in a hurt locker for new blood in the C&E Branch for years to come.

I know they were talking up retention, but think of numbers of members who release after their VIE under the current system. I see that number increasing...what with "They will be working in those jobs, but not qualified for those jobs".

Seems to me that a big bottleneck will be OJT. The plan is pretty much going to push the HQ & Sig Sqns into an extension of the training establishment, which is going to suck, as Op Tempo isn't going to take a break so we can train some basic skillsets.

 

[PuckChaser]

Well, if we don't go anywhere past 2011, the Branch assumes we have all sorts of time to hand hold DP1 pers.

Nowhere in the brief did they discuss skillfade. Apparently we're all supposed to be smart enough to memorize everything from the DP1, and retain it after working in a IST position.

 

[REDinstaller]

This will be even truer for the Cbt Arms units who require fully trained personell to allow for mission specifc tailored tasks. Sending plain vanilla ACISS out to a unit hurting for CSTs is not a solution, its a hinderance.

 

[REDinstaller]

Well, if we don't go anywhere past 2011, the Branch assumes we have all sorts of time to hand hold DP1 pers.

Nowhere in the brief did they discuss skillfade. Apparently we're all supposed to be smart enough to memorize everything from the DP1, and retain it after working in a IST position.

Maybe its time to leave the branch concept behind, and reactivate the RC Sigs Corps as an Army led, trained and administered entity. Give the ATIS back to the AF, and Half the Comms Research to the Navy. The Army 291ers can form the core of the IST sub occ, and give us mission tailored ECM/ESM capability without too much skill fade happening to the rest of the ACISS trade

 

[PuckChaser]

That's a pretty excellent idea, but CFIOG would never let that happen. Its the only way they get boots on the ground.  I've always maintained that Army EW should be done by SigOps (or ACISS core now). Give the strategic stuff to the Air Force and Navy.

 

[REDinstaller]

The AF ECM/ESM role could be provided by the AES Ops that currently man the back end of the Aurora. I'm sure CDNAviator would attest to that. CFIOG is a big of a lumbering beast as well. The new 21 EW Regt doesn't belong to them, only Lietrim and the remote dets belong to CFIOG. Not much of a deployment capability there.

 

[Schütze]

  Random question, will this have any effect on Sig O?

:yellow:

 

[PuckChaser]

  Random question, will this have any effect on Sig O?

:yellow:

Sig Os will be challenged to lead some troops that will be very disheartened by the new trades. This is a NCM change only.

Tango: Completely agree. AF 291ers don't do an AF role, leaving just Navy and Army as the only ones who work in their element. There's also probably quite a bit more Navy 291ers than there are positions on ship. The trade is purple by choice. The EW Regt should be manned by the best and brightest field signals troops in the Army, not forcing shift workers into the back of a Bison and expect them to be able to function.