BFT+Air Force deployment policy...I don't get it !!!!

[DirtyDog]

DirtyDog,

I see that you don't want to be associated with the Airforce.  I suggest that you remember that we are all one service here in Canada.  I also see from your profile that you have a whole 1 1/2 years military experience (mostly spent in the trg system, I presume).  Yes, there are "slugs" in the airforce and the Army has their fair share of them too..........I know.........I've seen them !!!!!!  I've had the pleasure of serving in both environments.  Both have their pro's and cons.  We all have a specific job to do to complete a mission.  The infantyman could not complete his job without the Airforce or Navy.  It would be quite the long "hump" to get to Afghanistan, wouldn't it???   Without the infantryman, we (Airforce) wouldn't have a job or purpose either.
We just have different ways of getting the job done.

Ok, the subject of clerks, etc......  You may not like Clerks, Supply Techs, Logistics trades, etc...... But I hope that you know how to procure, issue, or fix  your kit, or complete all of your adminstration needs because if you didn't have the hard working folks who happen to not be on the "front line" you'd be lost.  These folks put in a lot of hours behind the scenes so the Infantryman, Gunner, Trooper, or Sapper can do their job.

As far as the BFT goes.........it's good, but not perfect.  As far as the Express test goes........I personally think it sucks (too easy), but that's my opinion.  I think there should be one CF standard. 

Just remember that when you get more exposure to the CF that we all need each other, so stop bashing elements that you have no knowledge of.  I'm not trying to start anything here, but don't bash anybody just because of their element.  We all bleed red and white!!!!   

Let me know if I'm just ranting, but I'm tired of uninformed pers bashing the elements that they do not belong to, or have any knowledge of.  If you want me to start bashing the army and it's ways of doing things, I'd have to block book a whole day to sit down and type it out, but that's not what I'm about................I understand that we need each other.

I don't want to be associated with a group that wants to come out with low ball PC fitness standards.

I've been around long enough (A year out of training), and have had NCOs and officers around here lament about certain aspects of certain elements and trades enough to form certain opinions.  I speak in general terms and certainly don't mean to paint everyone with a common brush.  Of course the army has it's fair share of underachievers.  I see them everyday and beleive me, it drives me crazy.  However, in terms of maintaining a general military standard (I'm talking all things here... attitude, dress and deportment, physical fitness, dedication, hard work, etc.) the infantry, and the army, set the standard and certain other types seem to be lacking.  It's there to see in plain view.  I may not have a lot of knowledge for what certain people do in their day to day jobs in the military, but one look at them is enough in many cases.

We all have different jobs, and they are all important and inter-dependant.  MY problem was with this specific policy, and the attitude behind it, that's want to set a low ball standard.  It's ridiculous.  Of course an air force supply tech shouldn't be held to the same physical standard as a infantryman, but they should atleast meet the CF minimum which is too low as it is.  This idea from another poster that since they are so busy maintaining aircraft (or whatever) to do PT as it isn't a high priority to the job doesn't cut it for me.  That sounds like an excuse for being out of shape.  If it's not, and a just an explanation as to why a mechanic may not be fit enough to hump 100lbs up a mountainside, then fine.  Also, this crap about being held to a pilot medical standard (no problem here) or being instrument rated is a joke.  Gimme a break.  No one said you have to do "everything" we do.  Just that people remember they are in the military and that some of us don't like being associated with out of shape slobs that don't carry themselves like dedicated militay members.  It's almost as if some people want to say certain trades are basically just that, tradesmen in uniforms.  That's bullshi1t to me, I'm sorry.  "Soldiers first" may seem like a ridiculous or gun-ho addage to some, but to me, in the military this should be the rule not the exception.  Fault me for that or call me naive if you want, you're not going to hurt my feelings.

I've worked a couple of ranges and was truly floored at how BAD a vast majority of the non-combat arms, non-army types shot.  It was horrible and it was not just a few.  Rank didn't seem to be a factor either.  MWOs, Majors, and LTCs were not immune.  Many didn't even get to the mounds in time during the run downs to get a shot off.  It's hard to zero someone when their groupings are measured in (multiple) feet.  I'm really not trying to bash anyone here, but it really was a shocker to me and was a dissapointment.  I realize for many it was their first PWT 3, but a PWT 3 is NOT that hard and anyone deploying to a combat enviroment, as these people were, should atleast show some sort of aptness for a very basic soldier skill.  The RSO had a lot of complaints from those shooting that it was "unfair" for them to be expected to pass.  This was an example of one of things that has led me to have a dissatisfaction with some people.  Again, I'm not trying to bash.... but the standard should be higher!  As it should be within my own element and trade.

BTW - I'm trying to find out where exactly I said I didn't like clerks, supply techs, and logistic types, etc.  Infact, the one's i've come across in my unit have been excellent (by and large, a few notable exceptions come to mind).  I have a lot of respect for anyone that is good at their job and dedicated to it.  Regardless of what that job is.

 

[armyvern]

The Army has probably about the same percentage of "underachievers" or "strivers for the minimum they can possibly get away with" as any other enviornment.

Dirtydog ... did your sources:

I've been around long enough (A year out of training), and have had NCOs and officers around here lament about certain aspects of certain elements and trades enough to form certain opinions.

Serve with all those elements and trades? Or rather is their "informed" opinion not so informed - rather just conjecture? One f'n year??

Here's an informed opinion for you:

20 years service, 3 enviornments. I did regular formed Unit PT at two of those enviornments. The other one allowed us time to get to the gym 3 days per week individually but during working hours.

The pers that I worked with in the AF were JUST as fit as the soldiers I've worked with in the Army.

Now, you may say that's because we just aren't fit (possibly even falling in line with your personal opinion of say ..  perhaps "certain trades" - gained from your oodles of TI and experience and that "experienced" opinion from others you work with highlighted above).

Consider this:

Each and every pers where I currently work (Army) does regular formed Unit PT. They are ALL in good shape.

And, to a man, each and every pers that I currently work with who are NOT in good shape, or who do NOT do formed Unit PT with the rest of us ... are in that condition precisely because they are ex-zero trades who are on PCats due to injury caused in their prior trade. So, the "impression" that your "TI" and that "experience" of those "leaders" you currently serve with ... may be quite a waaaayyys off kilter to the ACTUALITY of the situation. After 1 year of TI -- you'd know what "assumptions" do already. Those "unfit f'n Sup Techs" you guys want to bitch about and slam ... may very well be YOU after you injure yourself permanently and are forced to remuster ... and one of them may very well be the guy that YOU replaced over "there". And, HE may be dressed in a blue or black uniform now ... we do wear purple.

Experience would indicate that you be very careful in considering what the fuck you are talking about -- in your opinion.

 

[aesop081]

I've been around long enough (A year out of training),

:rofl:

I've worked a couple of ranges and was truly floored at how BAD a vast majority of the non-combat arms, non-army types shot. 

So ? I shoot Mk46 lightweight ASW torpedoes. If i'm shooting a C7 things have gone horribly, horribly wrong and its going to take alot more than me being a good shot to fix it. As a matter of fact, i dont even get issued a C7........

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

What about a parachute?

 

[aesop081]

What about a parachute?

I do have one

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Not knowing if your Avatar is relevant, would that be like WW2 and bailing out the door of the B17 or some kind of fancy ejection seat?

 

[aesop081]

Not knowing if your Avatar is relevant, would that be like WW2 and bailing out the door of the B17 or some kind of fancy ejection seat?

The WW2 thing........

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Wow.  That is about worst case scenario you get and still breathing.

 

[aesop081]

Wow.  That is about worst case scenario you get and still breathing.

The parachutes themselves are from WW2 ( seems like it anyways) so the general consensus is that unless the aircraft is about to explode, we will strap in our seats and ride it into the ground (if over land).....odds are just better that way.

Over the ocean, parachuting out is a dumb idea. Everyone gets separated, no survival gear. You are just delaying your death.

 

[DirtyDog]

:rofl:

Well, maybe this speaks to my so called ignorance, but I'll probably still hold the same attitude and perceptions in 10 years judging by my NCOs (who by and large I have a lot of respect for) and my frame of mind.

=So ? I shoot Mk46 lightweight ASW torpedoes. If i'm shooting a C7 things have gone horribly, horribly wrong and its going to take alot more than me being a good shot to fix it. As a matter of fact, i dont even get issued a C7........

This particular group, for the most part, were going to be issued weapons.  Maybe they aren't going to spend a vast amount of time outside the wire (if any) but I would expect any person in the military, let alone those on the ground in a combat enviroment, to have atleast a basic proficiency and understanding of a service rifle.

 

[aesop081]

Well, maybe this speaks to my so called ignorance, but I'll probably still hold the same attitude and perceptions in 10 years judging by my NCOs (who by and large I have a lot of respect for) and my frame of mind.

I guess you wont since you obviously have an open mind.

BTW, i'm an air force Sr NCO, in fairly good shape. My dress and deportment are above standard, i work long hours, i'm mission oriented and i put my troops ahead of myself. I am technicaly and tacticaly competent and deployable 24/7/365. I've spent 11 years as a combat engineer and i will not paint the entire AF the way you have.

 

[armyvern]

Well, maybe this speaks to my so called ignorance, but I'll probably still hold the same attitude and perceptions in 10 years judging by my NCOs (who by and large I have a lot of respect for) and my frame of mind.
This particular group, for the most part, were going to be issued weapons.  Maybe they aren't going to spend a vast amount of time outside the wire (if any) but I would expect any person in the military, let alone those on the ground in a combat enviroment, to have atleast a basic proficiency and understanding of a service rifle.

That's why I got rid of The RCR I was married to (edited to add: this actually isn't the real reason we are now estranged ... but the conversation below has actually happened) ...

He kept saying when are you Sup Techs going to start running faster and get into better shape?? I'd give him one of two responses:

1)  When the CF starts giving me 6 hours a day to do PT with too like you get every day; OR

2)  I'm not --- I'm a better shot than you so why bother (Yes, I outscore him on the range every year)? Don't matter how fast you run ... my bullet IS going to catch your ass.



You'll only hold those "completely wrong and misinformed/misguided" attitudes until YOU are one of the guys hurt so bad they make you remuster -- and then you too get to sit back and listen to your former "team"mates in the zero trade slam you (and your "lack of fitness and personal drive/determination" which is actually a TCat at work) and your new trade for something that is well outside the circumstances of your own control/the element's control OR the trade's control.

A good leader ... would get rid of those wrong misperceptions NOW instead of insisting on holding on to them. What a great "team" concept eh?

 

[DirtyDog]

I guess you wont since you obviously have an open mind.

BTW, i'm an air force Sr NCO, in fairly good shape. My dress and deportment are above standard, i work long hours, i'm mission oriented and i put my troops ahead of myself. I am technicaly and tacticaly competent and deployable 24/7/365. I've spent 11 years as a combat engineer and i will not paint the entire AF the way you have.

Again, I'm speaking in general terms and didn't blanket an ENTIRE element.  very few things are absolute. Only saying some things seem to be more prevalent in certain trades and elements.  Maybe my eyes and mind are a little predjudice and notice faults more readily on those outside of my element, but my perceptions have roots.  However inaccurate you may see them (or maybe, even perhaps be in some instances).

As for yourself, everything I've seen of you here would seem to speak to your dedication and proficiency.

 

[armyvern]

Again, I'm speaking in general terms and didn't blanket an ENTIRE element.  very few things are absolute. Only saying some things seem to be more prevalent in certain trades and elements.  Maybe my eyes and mind are a little predjudice and notice faults more readily on those outside of my element, but my perceptions have roots.  However inaccurate you may see them (or maybe, even perhaps be in some instances).

As for yourself, everything I've seen of you here would seem to speak to your dedication and proficiency.

Of course they are more prevelant in other elements and trades!!

We have more per capita because WE get all the hurt ZERO trades who have to remuster because they CAN'T stay in YOUR trade. Fuck. THAT does not mean they are bags of shit because they choose to be - they just CAN'T be 6hour a day fitness "gawds" anymore. Get over it already. Cripes all mighty.

:brickwall:

 

[DirtyDog]

You'll only hold those "completely wrong and misinformed/misguided" attitudes until YOU are one of the guys hurt so bad they make you remuster -- and then you too get to sit back and listen to your former "team"mates in the zero trade slam you (and your "lack of fitness and personal drive/determination" which is actually a TCat at work) and your new trade for something that is well outside the circumstances of your own control/the element's control OR the trade's control.

A good leader ... would get rid of those wrong misperceptions NOW instead of insisting on holding on to them. What a great "team" concept eh?

Well, this started off with my problem with a particular policy regarding PT, but my whole "problem" isn't completely PTcentric.

As for every person who is out of shape being on some sort of medical category as a result of some injury, well, I find that somewhat hard to believe.  I mean, if you say so, and that may be the case in your unit but I know plenty of people personally, including in my uni,t who have no excuse.  There are those who have substained injuries in either combat, training, or from years in the trade, and I feel for those guys big time.  But there are others whom are just lazy.

Also, you may be under some sort of medical category which prevents you from running and other rigorous PT, but is that an excuse to no exercise and eat cheeseburgers until you're bursting at the seams?

The insinuation that soem in my leadership are less then stellar because they throw in the odd tongue in cheek remark about other trades, or bash other trades in their attempts to motivate or jack us, is a bit harsh.

 

[blacktriangle]

I've always found the people that train extra hard end up getting injured and thus frigged out of courses, tours etc while the slack people manage to barely meet the minimums and yet still have employment, tours, PLQ's etc..

So while I agree with DirtyDog that the CF as a whole needs higher PT, I guess not everyone is willing to sacrifice knees, ankles etc (and thus a career) to acheive stellar performance. 

 

[DirtyDog]

Of course they are more prevelant in other elements and trades!!

We have more per capita because WE get all the hurt ZERO trades who have to remuster because they CAN'T stay in YOUR trade. frig. THAT does not mean they are bags of crap because they choose to be - they just CAN'T be 6hour a day fitness "gawds" anymore. Get over it already. Cripes all mighty.

:brickwall:

This isn't strictly about fitness.  And again, this point about us getting all the time in the world to do PT and other trades being full of broken soldiers seems to be kind of weak.  I'm not a fitness god, but I like to think I do pretty good nowadays but ONLY because I did PT on my own time as things have been so messed up around here between taskings and field ex's, that getting into any kind of regular PT schedule is impossible.  And you don't need to be a PT god.... just not a 300lb beachball.

Anyway, I've stated my opinion and this thread is going no where.  Yes, my TI is lacking, but I don't plan on going anywhere soon so we'll see what the future has in store and we'll see how my opinions might change.  God knows, in my short time so far, things have changed quite a bit already.

 

[armyvern]

This isn't strictly about fitness.  And again, this point about us getting all the time in the world to do PT and other trades being full of broken soldiers seems to be kind of weak.  I'm not a fitness god, but I like to think I do pretty good nowadays but ONLY because I did PT on my own time as things have been so messed up around here between taskings and field ex's, that getting into any kind of regular PT schedule is impossible.  And you don't need to be a PT god.... just not a 300lb beachball.

Anyway, I've stated my opinion and this thread is going no where.  Yes, my TI is lacking, but I don't plan on going anywhere soon so we'll see what the future has in store and we'll see how my opinions might change.  God knows, in my short time so far, things have changed quite a bit already.

I don't work with a single 300lb "beachball" and never have -- regardless of enviornment. And, don't think you're the only ones with taskings etc to fill up your day besides getting the gym done AND the regular support duties. WE do that too.

See what cliches do? You don't seem to like it when they are thrown back at YOUR trade do you?

Get the point yet?

 

[aesop081]

, I guess not everyone is willing to sacrifice knees, ankles etc to acheive stellar performance. 

Theres nothing wrong with a high standard of personal fitness. Back when i was in my old trade, i even ran the 1 CMBG Mountain Man competition twice (1998 and 2000 ) and the training for that got me in awesome shape. Years later though, i am paying the price for that. Not everyone ends up with lasting problems from PT like that, but i sure did.

things have been so messed up around here between taskings and field ex's, that getting into any kind of regular PT schedule is impossible.  And you don't need to be a PT god.... just not a 300lb beachball.

My deployment schedule makes going to the gym difficult on good days. I'm often away from home base living in various hotels around the world, with no gym around. Usualy i am on per diem and its restaurant food 3 meals a day. I'm not 300 lbs but the lifestyle sometimes makes it a battle.

 

[DirtyDog]

I don't work with a single 300lb "beachball" and never have -- regardless of enviornment. And, don't think you're the only ones with taskings etc to fill up your day besides getting the gym done AND the regular support duties. WE do that too.

See what cliches do? You don't seem to like it when they are thrown back at YOUR trade do you?

Get the point yet?

Vern, I do see what you're trying to get at, just not sure abouth the way you want to get there.

You say "Well, we all don't get 6 hours for PT a day" and I say that's hardly the case. 

You then go on to tell me we're not the only busy ones, which I never argued. 

And I certainly understand circustances such as CND Aviator's.