BFT+Air Force deployment policy...I don't get it !!!!

[blacktriangle]

Theres nothing wrong with a high standard of personal fitness. Back when i was in my old trade, i even ran the 1 CMBG Mountain Man competition twice (1998 and 2000 ) and the training for that got me in awesome shape. Years later though, i am paying the price for that. Not everyone ends up with lasting problems from PT like that, but i sure did.

My deployment schedule makes going to the gym difficult on good days. I'm often away from home base with no gym around. Usualy i am on per diem and its restaurant food 3 meals a day. I'm not 300 lbs but the lifestyle sometimes makes it a battle.

I've been training hard since age 15, and almost 4 years since I'm starting to get frigged up. Really as long as a member can do their job well, and at the same time, not look like a "beachball" or die after a 2.4km run, I would be happy.

I'm army albeit a part timer, and I have seen many either too feeble or too fat to be useful.

 

[Loachman]

I don't want to be associated with a group that wants to come out with low ball PC fitness standards.

Good. Move along, please.

But first, what does "politically correct" have to do with any of this?

And, by the way, people with a little more time in than

(A year out of training),

have decided that both the EXPRES Test and BFT meet the requirements of the CF, until better measures are found. You're outvoted.

I may not have a lot of knowledge for what certain people do in their day to day jobs in the military,

Book.

but one look at them

Cover.

is enough in many cases.

Judgement.

You're not supposed to do that, you know.

MY problem was with this specific policy, and the attitude behind it, that's want to set a low ball standard.

"Low ball" based upon what?

What justification is there to have a higher minimum standard? Opinion does not count. There has to be clear justification.

Show me examples of people who meet the standards but are not capable of doing their jobs. That should be interesting, being as you have freely admitted that you do not know what they do in the first place.

but they should atleast meet the CF minimum

Yes, and action is taken if they do not.

which is too low as it is.

Based upon what justification, again...?

This idea from another poster

That would be this poster, right here.

that since they are so busy maintaining aircraft (or whatever) to do PT

That is NOT what I said.

After an irreverant summary of Infantry physical requirements, I said: "That is not part of our job requirement, and there is therefore no need to train to that level".

Now, if you think that I am wrong in that statement, please feel free to rebut.

My statement is based upon simple fact, ie it is not a stated requirement, and upon experience - twenty-six times your "year out of training" in my current environment alone plus over nine additional years in other areas.

I then went on to say "We could spend as much time on PT as Combat Arms folk, but to what benefit to anybody?", etcetera. Now, as I said, you have a choice - we could meet your personal fitness standard or we could provide you with helicopter support, but not both. There are not enough of us or enough time in the day to do both. That is reality.

as it isn't a high priority to the job doesn't cut it for me.

You know what? I do not care what "cuts it for you". Your opinion is irrelevant.

And should you be in the unfortunate situation of bleeding badly somewhere someday, you'll realize that, too. You will not care one bit if I can do ten push-ups or a hundred, only that I can get you to where you really need to be in time. Likewise, you'll not care how many sit-ups the people that put me into the air can do, only that the helicopter works.

That sounds like an excuse for being out of shape.

Define "out of shape".

You be "in shape" to do your job, and I'll be "in shape" to do mine, thank-you very much.

If it's not, and a just an explanation as to why a mechanic may not be fit enough to hump 100lbs up a mountainside,

It is, and he/she does not have to be.

Also, this crap about being held to a pilot medical standard (no problem here) or being instrument rated is a joke.  Gimme a break.  No one said you have to do "everything" we do.

Some people seem to think so, especially on the PT side, and I did not specifically say you.

Just that people remember they are in the military and that some of us don't like being associated with out of shape slobs that don't carry themselves like dedicated militay members.

Some of us don't like being associated with holier-than-thou types who have no clue what others do and why, either.

And I've seen plenty of super-fit prettyboys who are more dedicated to their Schwartzenegger imitation than their proper military job, too, by the way, as well as those who have a struggle with the EXPRES Test yet contribute far more.

It's almost as if some people want to say certain trades are basically just that, tradesmen in uniforms.  That's bullshi1t to me, I'm sorry.

It's also reality, more than you think, and I'm sorry about that.

"Soldiers first" may seem like a ridiculous or gun-ho addage to some, but to me, in the military this should be the rule not the exception.

It's a nice ideal.

I've worked a couple of ranges and was truly floored at how BAD a vast majority of the non-combat arms, non-army types shot.  It was horrible and it was not just a few.

I have seen that, more than once, and it has been truly scary at times. And it was that way, too, in The Good Old Days when we had far more ammunition to shoot as well.

I could also tell you about some of the dumb things that some physically-fit Combat Arms types have done to helicopters for which I have signed, or have come way too close to doing for my comfort. In one case, the helicopter was laid up for three months while Bell figured out how to fix it, as nobody had ever damaged that part (major structural member) with a stretcher before, let alone that badly. The actual repair took another month or two on top of that. I've also seen a few of you come really close to serious injury.

MWOs, Majors, and LTCs were not immune.

There are no "LTCs" in the CF.

I'm really not trying to bash anyone here,

Other than calling us fat, out-of-shape slobs...

I realize for many it was their first PWT 3, but a PWT 3 is NOT that hard and anyone deploying to a combat enviroment, as these people were, should atleast show some sort of aptness for a very basic soldier skill.

As well as meeting the fitness requirements for that deployment, most definitely.

The RSO had a lot of complaints from those shooting that it was "unfair" for them to be expected to pass.

They should have failed, and been told that it was "unfair" for others' lives to be put at risk, and then been given additional range time in order to meet the standard or been dagged red.

This was an example of one of things that has led me to have a dissatisfaction with some people.

And some dissatisfaction is natural, however it should be tempered somewhat.

I have a lot of respect for anyone that is good at their job and dedicated to it.  Regardless of what that job is.

As have I, and any normal person.

 

[TCBF]

Of course they are more prevelant in other elements and trades!!
We have more per capita because WE get all the hurt ZERO trades who have to remuster because they CAN'T stay in YOUR trade. ...

- A few years back, I thought we should introduce Fitness Catagories as well as Medical Catagories for each trade.   from an MHR perspective, it would probably be a big waste of time, but it would keep the Ninja's happy.

- I now see the other option would to be create 'Catagoried' employment positions.  Just like the German Army had 'Frostbite bns' and 'Flat feet Bns', we could load certain sub-units with people who could hold the line - maybe - but probably would never be able to make it back to the next one.  The old 1980s joke about the wheelchair mounted soldiers manning the DIP (Die In Place) Bridge Demolition Guard in the Neckartal comes to mind.

- So be it.  Not everyone makes it out of a disaster - that's why they call'em didasters.  

 

[Zoomie]

I've worked a couple of ranges and was truly floored at how BAD a vast majority of the non-combat arms, non-army types shot.  It was horrible and it was not just a few.

Similarly I have seen some horrible flying skills exhibited by "guests" on my flightdeck.  How hard is it to fly?  Basic hand and eye co-ordination is all it takes - much like weapons handling. 

I train hard to do my job so it looks easy - I may not be as much of a PT guru as I once was - but I'm a damned better pilot now than I ever was while pounding the ground with a ruck on my back. 

PWT 3 is a bit extreme for those never deploying outside the wire in KAF.  Zero them at 100m and then give them a whole wack of ammunition to develop their basic skills at exposures out to 200m.  Run-downs are way too advanced for those that will NEVER practice those skills again.

 

[Loachman]

PWT 3 is a bit extreme for those never deploying outside the wire in KAF.  Zero them at 100m and then give them a whole wack of ammunition to develop their basic skills at exposures out to 200m.  Run-downs are way too advanced for those that will NEVER practice those skills again.

We did that as part of our work-up, too. Some were not exactly brilliant, but everybody met the standard.

We did not question that the standard may have been too high - perhaps we were just enjoying it too much, run-downs and all.

And none of us can guarantee that we will not step outside, or need the skill.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

DirtyDog

Each trade is subject to the PT standards enforced by the Senior Command in the CF.  It doesn't mean that those that pass those standards are 'battle fit' either.  I might be able to do the BFT in record time but be a complete f--k up making tactical decisions in TICs that kill my troops.  Why are you not beating THAT drum? 

I used to think like you, and think, for the combat arms, your mentality is sound and I agree. 

However, you can't use the same measuring stick for ALL trades in the CF.  The question must be asked "what do I need from Person A, in MOC B, at Unit C?  Example, a 500 series tech at 12 AMS, who has passed the CF EXPRES test, and is a highly skilled tech keeping SeaKings in the air is of more use to the CO of 12 AMS than the semi-skilled 500 series tech who has the Wing record for all PT competitions on the base.

As a former Cmbt Arms type myself, I know how you are thinking because, I used to think like you.  If you weren't a 'zero' trade, in my mind, you were a second class citizen, period (I was taught that and bought into it...much to my dismay to admit now).  Over time, I started to realize that trying to measure all MOCs with the same stick is like giving everyone the same size boots;  its just not smart.

Quoting yourself with just over 1 year out of training as reason to why your opinion is valid?  For the record, the current pair of the combat sock system I have ready to put on tomorrow has been in service longer than you.  Just a thought.

Ease up some.  You can be proud of your own, and your unit, and trade 'acceptable standard' in whatever subject, but what makes a good infantry soldier does not transfer directly over to making a good AVS, AVN, ATIS Tech, or Bos'n.  Just something to consider.

 

[Sub_Guy]

If you weren't a 'zero' trade, in my mind, you were a second class citizen, period (I was taught that and bought into it...much to my dismay to admit now).  Over time, I started to realize that trying to measure all MOCs with the same stick is like giving everyone the same size boots;  its just not smart.

AES Op 081... Zero Trade...

There are also the guys who can't pass the expres test but are able to do the BFT and vice versa.

 

[MamaBear]

Maybe the CF (and especially Dirty Dog) could use a saying we have in the professional theatre world.  "There are no small parts, only small actors".   Knocking what some people think are the less than valuable trades seems to be a strange way to support those who may very well save your life one day...or at least make it more comfortable. 

Just my civilian opinion.

 

[Sf2]

Perhaps you should stop worrying about your ego tainting "association" and just concentrate about learning your job, and how your job is reliant upon other peoples' jobs.

Once you get that squared away, in oh, 10 yrs, then you can start worrying about your cheeseburger buddies.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

AES Op 081... Zero Trade...

There are also the guys who can't pass the expres test but are able to do the BFT and vice versa.

Doh!  I should have known that one.  

 

[armyvern]

Doh!  I should have known that one.  

Actually --- in the context used in your original comment it goes quite well !!

If you weren't a 'zero' trade, in my mind, you were a second class citizen,

I know some AESOPs ... and most of them would agree (at least amongst the blue uniforms!!)  >

I now await the really hot pilots (and their simulators) to come along and sort me out on that (fast air need not apply).  ;D

 

[Loachman]

I know some AESOPs ... and most of them would agree (at least amongst the blue uniforms!!)  >

It's a free country. The poor, misguided things are entitled to their opinions.

I now await the really hot pilots (and their simulators) to come along and sort me out on that (fast air need not apply).  ;D

Dum-dee-dum-dum...

 

[TCBF]

Maybe the CF (and especially Dirty Dog) could use a saying we have in the professional theatre world.  "There are no small parts, only small actors".   Knocking what some people think are the less than valuable trades seems to be a strange way to support those who may very well save your life one day...or at least make it more comfortable. 

Just my civilian opinion.

"There are no small parts, only small actors".  I like that.  Can I steal it?

 

[MamaBear]

"There are no small parts, only small actors".   I like that.  Can I steal it?

By all means! 

 

[Bert]

Once you get that squared away, in oh, 10 yrs, then you can start worrying about your cheeseburger buddies.

Why is everyone dumping on cheeseburgers? 

http://www.layercake.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/cheeseburger.jpg

 

[stealthylizard]

I am another of those that have problems with the Express test, but throw a ruck on my back and I can go forever.  I would rather do the BFT every day than a morning run once a week.  >

 

[Loachman]

Ditto.

I have permanent nerve damage in my right leg from the EXPRES test last summer. I am somewhat leary of risking that again.

It occurred on one of the turns on the shuttle run. When the shuttle run first came out several years ago, I was already too old to do that and the step test was the norm for my age group. They were concerned about leg injuries in older members initially, but those concerns seems to have been pushed aside. I think that they were valid concerns.

I run, but not religiously, and I have never (like the CDS) been the fastest. It's the turns on the shuttle run that are the problem, though.

Fortunately, my injury is minor and sensory only, however I have little desire to aggravate it or cause worse. It caused me considerable discomfort for the first two months, making walking or sitting in any one position for more than a few minutes annoying, but has since settled down and I rarely notice it anymore. I had X-rays, bone scans, CT scans, and a lengthy visit with a neurologist before a firm diagnosis was made. I was greatly relieved when it was determined that it was not a spinal injury.

Being as the BFT is the standard for deployment, I'd much rather do that for both reasons.