Bringing back "Double Dipping"

[Good2Golf]

I got out when my "fulfillment/fun factor" curve crossed below my "QOL/QOWL actual/potential" curve, and never for a moment came close to even considering a double-dip scenario, but...if I had...

THIS
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A pension is just a financial benefit. I don't see the mental gymnastics in saying "I want to exercise this financial benefit now, at 50%, instead of 10 years from now, at 70%."

Viewing this as "you can't be collecting your pension and drawing a salary too" is basically like factoring in sunk costs into your decisions going forward. For the employer, the pension is gone, it's sunk costs. The contributions have been made, the value is set, etc. If anything, having someone switch from Reg Force to Class B to do the same job was saving the government incremental costs.

That's not mental gymnastics. I think the idea is that a pension, which is simply an annuity, needs to be tied to "retirement" is an outdated / narrow definition, and limiting yourself to that causes you to make bad decisions like factoring in sunk costs.

From the CAF/DND point of view, (not GoC), the Vote 1 allocation from which pers costs are drawn is entirely separate from the CFSA proceeds to a CAF pensioner.

To tie them together is emotional, not fudiciary - it is no more valid to make such a case than it is for a post-release employer adjust an ex-CAF member's civilian salary downwards by an amount equal to their pension - which is what the "get back in, stop drawing pension" amounts to.

Even an awesome shiny "CFOne" card doesn't make the "we are one" mantra true...

:2c:

Regards
G2G

 

[SupersonicMax]

Most annuitants at the time were for all intents and purposes serving in Reg force establishments and contributed very little to the actual reserve force.  Even though they were technically reservists.

So under your proposal would those same people be ok with being posted where they were needed most?  A lot of people I know got out, not because of pay, it was lifestyle and where they were going to be posted next.  if they can take their pension and make more civy side and live a better lifestyle why would they opt for that?

I bet that for the job security and job levels they get, they would.  To be a pilot on the civy side normally means a 75% reduction in salary for the first 3 years before making an equal amount to the military.

 

[kev994]

To be a pilot on the civy side normally means a 75% reduction in salary for the first 3 years before making an equal amount to the military.

Ive been told that you can make up for that if you take overtime

 

[SupersonicMax]

Ive been told that you can make up for that if you take overtime

Sure but then you have the same QOL issues you had in the military for the same pay.

 

[gcclarke]

Sure but then you have the same QOL issues you had in the military for the same pay.

You might have some QOL issues, but the same ones? A bit of overtime doesn't, for example, force you to live in Cold Lake, it doesn't cause you to move so often that your spouse is unable to obtain decent employment, it doesn't waste your time with unnecessary secondary duties, etc. It doesn't mean that you're stuck driving a desk somewhere instead of actually flying like you joined to do.

 

[mariomike]

So, if you guys have any examples of jobs for which people left the CAF, and who provided comparable, or better, compensation... feel free to let me know!

This is from 2016,
https://army.ca/forums/threads/105151/post-1482454.html#msg1482454
"These are the top earners. Your earnings may vary."

Your schedule ( twenty 12-hour shifts every six weeks ), station and partner are not subject to change.

When vacancies occur, they are posted. You can bid via the Senior Qualified Process.

100% City paid health, dental, life insurance ( 2 X salary ), out-of-province / out of Canada travel insurance, and a Convalescent Care Plan. From the day you hire on until age 65. For active and retired members. No deductible.

This ends at age 65.

From age 65 to 75 you receive a $3,500 annual Health Care Spending Account ( HCSA ).

Your life insurance is reduced to a $5,000. lifetime policy. You have 60 days to maintain the old policy, no questions asked.  But, after age 65, YOU pay the premiums.

This is the pension plan for Police, Firefighters and Paramedics,
https://omers.com/Employers/Administering-the-Plan/Supplemental-Plan
It was established in 2008. I retired in 2009, so it does not apply to me.

My job was the most fun I ever had in my life. A post-retirement job would be a let down.

, for example, force you to live in Cold Lake,

I keep reading that about Cold Lake. My sister loves it so much she made it her "forever home".

 

[Lumber]

This is from 2016,
https://army.ca/forums/threads/105151/post-1482454.html#msg1482454
"These are the top earners. Your earnings may vary."

Your schedule ( twenty 12-hour shifts every six weeks ), station and partner are not subject to change.

When vacancies occur, they are posted. You can bid via the Senior Qualified Process.

100% City paid health, dental, life insurance ( 2 X salary ), out-of-province / out of Canada travel insurance, and a Convalescent Care Plan. From the day you hire on until age 65. For active and retired members. No deductible.

...[snip]

Hmmm... I'll have to look into Halifax and see what the salary and benefits are like here.

 

[Lumber]

This is from 2016,
https://army.ca/forums/threads/105151/post-1482454.html#msg1482454
"These are the top earners. Your earnings may vary."

Well the earnings must vary a lot, or else I'm missing something. I just looked at the salary (Wage) for paramedics in Halifax, and the average wage is roughly $30 an hour..

So I look up Toronto salaries, and it says that the average salary is between $35 and $40 per hour, and some sites are saying $50k is average.

Where does the extra almost $100K come from? There can't possibly be THAT much overtime?

 

[mariomike]

Well the earnings must vary a lot, or else I'm missing something. I just looked at the salary (Wage) for paramedics in Halifax, and the average wage is roughly $30 an hour..

So I look up Toronto salaries, and it says that the average salary is between $35 and $40 per hour, and some sites are saying $50k is average.

Where does the extra almost $100K come from? There can't possibly be THAT much overtime?

That's directly from the Ontario 2016 Public Sector Salary Disclosure Act,
https://www.ontario.ca/page/public-sector-salary-disclosure-2016-all-sectors-and-seconded-employees

Does not include Nova Scotia.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

That is probably a grievance settlement...

 

[mariomike]

That is probably a grievance settlement...

This is Salary Disclosure from 2011 to 2016 inclusive. ( Missed 2015 ).
https://army.ca/forums/threads/105151.0

From the Ontario Public sector salary disclosure for 1996 to 2018,
https://www.ontario.ca/page/public-sector-salary-disclosure

Aka The Ontario Sunshine List.

Sometimes easier to pay the OT than hire more people ( benefits etc. )

 

[brihard]

Just what jobs are people getting out for? I'm honestly curious. I talked about getting out with my wife so that we could have some more stability, but financial it just made no sense.

Between the pay, the pension, the medical and dental benefits, the 7 weeks of vacation a year (that only counting stat holidays and short days at Christmas. all other stats and short days just add to this 7 weeks), we could not come up with any other job that I would be eligible for that would come anywhere close to comparing to the pay and benefit package that the CAF offers.

So, if you guys have any examples of jobs for which people left the CAF, and who provided comparable, or better, compensation... feel free to let me know!

I have a friend who was a major in the RCAF. He was told his next posting was to Ottawa. He sat back, through about it, and got out to join the RCMP. That was at 14 years of service. While the pay isn't up to the same level (pretty hard to find a public sector job that beats the pay or a Major), the pension is transferable, and the compensation is still pretty good. Anyone in the junior or non commissioned ranks who hops over to policing is going to be coming out well ahead, particularly once overtime is added. The pension and other benefits are generally quite good too. There isn't as much vacation, at least not directly, but I'd bet working hours don't work out too poorly in comparison, particularly given how the CAF willl randomly send you to work full out for a couple months straight of long days. Shift schedules generally mean longer work days, and more days off- a police officer working shifts somewhere will normally be working roughly half the days depending on shift length. It'll generally be around 2000 hours a year of scheduled work before any overtime.

 

[mariomike]

Anyone in the junior or non commissioned ranks who hops over to policing is going to be coming out well ahead, particularly once overtime is added.

And Paid Duty.

Hourly rates,

Police Constables (all classifications) $73.00 (minimum $219.00)
Sergeants (when in charge of 4 or more police officers) $83.00 (minimum $249.00)
Staff Sergeant (when in charge of 10 or more police officers) $92.00 (minimum $276.00)
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/paidduty/rates.php

It'll generally be around 2000 hours a year of scheduled work before any overtime.

Toronto police and paramedics work 40 hours a week. Firefighters work 42.

Police work a 10-hour day, 10-hour evening, and eight-hour night shift.

Paramedics work 12-hour shifts.

Firefighters work 24-hour shifts.

According to the Sunshine List, the police chief made, $344,397.98

One Toronto constable earned $289,000

19 other constables earned more than $200,000

 

[Haggis]

Anyone in the junior or non commissioned ranks who hops over to policing is going to be coming out well ahead, particularly once overtime is added.

Don't forget stat holiday pay, shift premiums, short shift changes, weekend premiums etc.  That adds up pretty fast.

 

[brihard]

Don't forget stat holiday pay, shift premiums, short shift changes, weekend premiums etc.  That adds up pretty fast.

Be nice, we're not trying to make anyone cry here.

 

[OldSolduer]

Be nice, we're not trying to make anyone cry here.

One of the best days of my life was when the WPS politely declined to employ me. Money ain’t everything.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Just what jobs are people getting out for? I'm honestly curious. I talked about getting out with my wife so that we could have some more stability, but financial it just made no sense.

Between the pay, the pension, the medical and dental benefits, the 7 weeks of vacation a year (that only counting stat holidays and short days at Christmas. all other stats and short days just add to this 7 weeks), we could not come up with any other job that I would be eligible for that would come anywhere close to comparing to the pay and benefit package that the CAF offers.

So, if you guys have any examples of jobs for which people left the CAF, and who provided comparable, or better, compensation... feel free to let me know!

As an Officer, it really doesn't make that much sense money-wise, unless you can land a job in the private sector in management. 

Best way to do this is to get AOC or ORO and combine it with an MBA.  You could also further enhance yourself by working a crappy Project Management job in Ottawa at a place like DGLEPM, DGNEPM, DLR, etc.

Once you do that, you've got everything you need to role over to a Bank, Bay Street, Industry, etc.

Yah, some private sectors don't pay the same salary off the bat but there are other incentives.  My spouse works in banking and while we get pats on the back for jobs well done, her Bank gives its employees money, quarterly.

Oh and management often takes there performance bonuses in Stocks.  Imagine getting given shares in a bank like TD, $77 bucks a pop right now and 74 cents in dividends quarterly per share.  That can add up very quickly!

 

[Infanteer]

No, it can't. It takes seven plus years to get somebody through RMC and the flying training programme,

That's probably one of the problems there.  Seven years in the training pipeline to true OFP.

 

[mariomike]

So I look up Toronto salaries, and it says that the average salary is between $35 and $40 per hour, and some sites are saying $50k is average.

You can read the rates of pay in the collective agreement - posted below.

This is the collective agreement: 1 Jan., 2012 - 31 Dec., 2015
https://local416.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Toronto_CivicEmployees_outside1.pdf

Paramedic $43.19

Paramedic Field Training Officer ( FTO ) $52.11

You are paid a minimum of 40 hours each and every week.

That is up to the last day of 2015.

To calculate the rates after 2015, you must use this formula,

MEMORANDUM OF SETTLEMENT
https://local416.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/City-of-Toronto-Local-416-FINAL-Memorandum-of-Settlement-Appendix-A-B-February-19-2016.pdf
January 1, 2016, to December 31, 2019

The collective agreement only applies to union jobs. ie: Paramedic and FTO.

For Supervisor, Commander, Deputy Chief, Chief you can only find their salaries in the Ontario public sector salary disclosure aka the sunshine list.

That's base salary only. The collective agreement explains the various items that add to it. ( Overtime, Call-Back and Standby, Superior Duties, Stat Holidays, Shift premium, Meal Allowance, Paid Duty, Early Calls and Late Calls, Quarantine, Coroner's Court, Special Ops premiums, etc. )

Hope that helps.

 

[Lumber]

That's probably one of the problems there.  Seven years in the training pipeline to true OFP.

Not to mention that sometimes the first posting for a pilot isn't to an operational squadron, but right back to the school. It actually makes sense from a training perspective to post experts on the Harvard back to the school to train others on the Harvard, because if they go learn to fly Cyclones for 6 years, they might be a bit rusty on the Harvard if they don't go back as instructors until after a few years on an operational air frame.

That being said, it still seems odd. You join the CAF as a pilot to participate in missions and be operational, but instead you spend 4 years at RMC, 3 years learning to be a pilot, then get posted back to the school as an instructor for 3 years. So, from the time you sign up to the time you actually start actually get out of the training system to doing core business could be 10 years. :S

Actually, I had a friend who was a pilot, failed out of being a pilot after numerous attempts, spent a while waiting for a re-muster to go through, finally got a re-muster to ACSO, and by the time he finished training as an ACSO and was OFP, it had been almost 12 years since he joined the CAF. 12 years from signing up to OFP. Yikes.