Canada's tanks

[Colin Parkinson]

When you buy a fleet of tanks such as the Leopard or M1 or whatever brand you really need to order the recovery tanks, the AVLBs, the AEV and what ever else tanks need to get around the battlefield or off it. I know I am a kunuckledragger but.....

Whatever you think you will need, double it.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Hey look it's an "upgrade" program

Rheinmetall Reveals Its Plan to Boost the Leopard 2A4 MBT’s Capabilities with the KF51 Turret, What Is Happening with the Panther Tank | Defense Express

A new turret for the Leopard 2A4 and a lighter Lynx variant headlined Rheinmetall’s developments at the international defense exhibition in Poland

en.defence-ua.com

Ahem

Canada's tanks

 

[PrairieFella]

Ahem

Canada's tanks

The hulls themselves on the remaining A4s are tired as hell. They need wholesale replacement, not further upgrades. I'm sure the Leo 2 hulls could still find great use as AEVs, ARVs, bridge layers, etc but we need new MBTs something fierce (and at that point you may as well get all the aforementioned tank supporters in the same configuration for logistical simplicity).

If I'm waving my wand we pick up 250-300 top notch M1s with a full complement of new supporters and select reserve units get what's left of the Leopard 2s until the attrite themselves to nothing. Half for training, half for parts. Reservists ran tanks in the past, they can do it now with the right support.

 

[GK .Dundas]

The hulls themselves on the remaining A4s are tired as hell. They need wholesale replacement, not further upgrades. I'm sure the Leo 2 hulls could still find great use as AEVs, ARVs, bridge layers, etc but we need new MBTs something fierce (and at that point you may as well get all the aforementioned tank supporters in the same configuration for logistical simplicity).

If I'm waving my wand we pick up 250-300 top notch M1s with a full complement of new supporters and select reserve units get what's left of the Leopard 2s until the attrite themselves to nothing. Half for training, half for parts. Reservists ran tanks in the past, they can do it now with the right support.

Careful son that's damn close to Heresy on both subjects. New tanks and letting the Reserves operate real tanks.

 

[PrairieFella]

Careful son that's damn close to Heresy on both subjects. New tanks and letting the Reserves operate real tanks.

"They hated Jesus because he was right"

 

[KevinB]

The hulls themselves on the remaining A4s are tired as hell. They need wholesale replacement, not further upgrades. I'm sure the Leo 2 hulls could still find great use as AEVs, ARVs, bridge layers, etc but we need new MBTs something fierce (and at that point you may as well get all the aforementioned tank supporters in the same configuration for logistical simplicity).

If I'm waving my wand we pick up 250-300 top notch M1s with a full complement of new supporters and select reserve units get what's left of the Leopard 2s until the attrite themselves to nothing. Half for training, half for parts. Reservists ran tanks in the past, they can do it now with the right support.

Given the Leo2's and all the rest of the family of them you have left to Ukraine - grab 500 of the retired USMC M1A1FEP's, and you have enough for Reg and Res needs, get another 100 plain M1A1 for conversion into AEV, AVLB, ARV and ABV's.

 

[PrairieFella]

Given the Leo2's and all the rest of the family of them you have left to Ukraine - grab 500 of the retired USMC M1A1FEP's, and you have enough for Reg and Res needs, get another 100 plain M1A1 for conversion into AEV, AVLB, ARV and ABV's.

At roughly 6 million USD per tank, I can't see us spending around 5 billion on new tanks in this day and age. Man I'd love that though haha. Maybe Uncle Sam wants to give any a bunch of M1A2 SEP V3 to clear some room off the yards haha.

 

[KevinB]

At roughly 6 million USD per tank, I can't see us spending around 5 billion on new tanks in this day and age. Man I'd love that though haha. Maybe Uncle Sam wants to give any a bunch of M1A2 SEP V3 to clear some room off the yards haha.

I doubt the SepV3's would go, but we are basically giving M1A1's away for FMA.
Given that the DU needs to be removed from them for nearly all export countries - Canada is one of the 3 countries that could get them without the DU removed, thus it would be cheaper to actually give them all to Canada, than to sell them to most countries or even donate them thru FMA.

However the security requirements would basically force them to reside on Reg Force bases.

 

[PrairieFella]

I doubt the SepV3's would go, but we are basically giving M1A1's away for FMA.
Given that the DU needs to be removed from them for nearly all export countries - Canada is one of the 3 countries that could get them without the DU removed, thus it would be cheaper to actually give them all to Canada, than to sell them to most countries or even donate them thru FMA.

However the security requirements would basically force them to reside on Reg Force bases.

That's fine. They should be kept on Reg bases anyways to minimize transport costs to the field. Onesies and twosies can be flatbedded and kept under guard as need be for training or COMREL.

 

[Maxman1]

"They hated Jesus because he was right"

 

[RedFive]

"They hated Jesus because he was right"

I got shouted down by a regular contributor here for suggesting such a thing only months ago. May the odds be ever in your favour.

 

[MilEME09]

The hulls themselves on the remaining A4s are tired as hell. They need wholesale replacement, not further upgrades. I'm sure the Leo 2 hulls could still find great use as AEVs, ARVs, bridge layers, etc but we need new MBTs something fierce (and at that point you may as well get all the aforementioned tank supporters in the same configuration for logistical simplicity).

If I'm waving my wand we pick up 250-300 top notch M1s with a full complement of new supporters and select reserve units get what's left of the Leopard 2s until the attrite themselves to nothing. Half for training, half for parts. Reservists ran tanks in the past, they can do it now with the right support.

Tired or not it would be a lot easier, and cheaper to strip those hulls down, rebuild them, and put a KF51turret on the entire fleet. We can wistfully hope for 8+ billion for M1s or any other tank but realistically we don't have the budget to buy a new tank fleet anytime soon. So I say we sell this as an upgrade, wait another 5 years then do an "upgrade" on the hulls and bam shell game fir new tanks.

 

[suffolkowner]

Tired or not it would be a lot easier, and cheaper to strip those hulls down, rebuild them, and put a KF51turret on the entire fleet. We can wistfully hope for 8+ billion for M1s or any other tank but realistically we don't have the budget to buy a new tank fleet anytime soon. So I say we sell this as an upgrade, wait another 5 years then do an "upgrade" on the hulls and bam shell game fir new tanks.

Well the budget is just politics and that can change. Where did the budget for the AEW birds come from or the 23 "extra" F35's or the 8 MRTT's?
I think the suggestion is that the US may help us out a bit with our tank situation especially with regards to Ukraine. It has been rumoured that they have made that offer to us multiple times in the past
But I think its best to be somewhat reasonable about the numbers with the average from UK/FR/GER/IT/SP being only 200 active tanks and all from larger or equivalent economies and larger populations and closer to the threat

Australia got 160 hulls for $1.7B US
75 M1A2sepv3
29 M1150 Assault Breacher Vehicles
18 M1074 Joint Assault Bridges
6 M88A2 hercules recovery vehicles

I think Poland paid $1.4B US for the tanks but the whole package was $3.75B?
116 M1A1 FEP
12 M88A2
8 M1074
plus another 250 M1A2sepv3 for a total of $6B?

Taiwan spent $2.2B US
108 M1A2
14 M88A2
16 Oshkosh trucks

edit

the $6B polish purchase includes
250 M1A2sepv3
26 M88A2
17 M110 JAB

 

[FJAG]

I doubt the SepV3's would go, but we are basically giving M1A1's away for FMA.
Given that the DU needs to be removed from them for nearly all export countries - Canada is one of the 3 countries that could get them without the DU removed, thus it would be cheaper to actually give them all to Canada, than to sell them to most countries or even donate them thru FMA.

However the security requirements would basically force them to reside on Reg Force bases.

I know that it may sound bombastic, but IMHO this really is an option we should seriously explore - and not just for M1A1s. I firmly believe we could buy a more modern armoured force (we already have a large enough medium LAV force and the bones to put together a light force) for relatively little . We need to remember we got the bulk of the Leos at bargain basement prices.

What we need is to focus on building an appropriate sustainment force to support an armoured force (and for that matter the medium and light forces)

And why not heavily tilted towards the reserve force? Its time we got our penchant for a large RegF budget out of our system. We need a bigger army and can't afford the Cadillac version so let's build a viable Chevy one. It's not that it can't be done - ARNG enters the chat - it's the will that's needed.

Where they reside is a minor detail once we get our head out of our ass and address the real issues.

 

[markppcli]

I doubt the SepV3's would go, but we are basically giving M1A1's away for FMA.
Given that the DU needs to be removed from them for nearly all export countries - Canada is one of the 3 countries that could get them without the DU removed, thus it would be cheaper to actually give them all to Canada, than to sell them to most countries or even donate them thru FMA.

However the security requirements would basically force them to reside on Reg Force bases.

Which would be fine. Having a Sqn or so of tanks in Wainwright for training (with maint pers) could allow reservists to confirm skills they train on simulators. I don’t think we’ll ever, even in my wildest dreams, see tanks housed in down town Winnipeg or Kelowna.

Reserve tanks are a nice thought, I think sub units are doable, possibly dispersed and forming a joint Regiment. For example A Sqn in Edmonton, B Sqn in Winnipeg. How far we can effectively move reservists for a weeks training before it becomes futile is probably a consideration. Of course the real limiting factor is budget and maintenance.

 

[KevinB]

Well the budget is just politics and that can change. Where did the budget for the AEW birds come from or the 23 "extra" F35's or the 8 MRTT's?
I think the suggestion is that the US may help us out a bit with our tank situation especially with regards to Ukraine. It has been rumoured that they have made that offer to us multiple times in the past
But I think its best to be somewhat reasonable about the numbers with the average from UK/FR/GER/IT/SP being only 200 active tanks and all from larger or equivalent economies and larger populations and closer to the threat

Australia got 160 hulls for $1.7B US
75 M1A2sepv3
29 M1150 Assault Breacher Vehicles
18 M1074 Joint Assault Bridges
6 M88A2 hercules recovery vehicles

I think Poland paid $1.4B US for the tanks but the whole package was $3.75B?
116 M1A1 FEP
12 M88A2
8 M1074
plus another 250 M1A2sepv3 for a total of $6B?

Taiwan spent $2.2B US
108 M1A2
14 M88A2
16 Oshkosh trucks

edit

the $6B polish purchase includes
250 M1A2sepv3
26 M88A2
17 M110 JAB

Poland didn’t get M1A1 FEP, they got older US Army ones with CITV. Despite a lot of commentary to the contrary the only former USMC M1A1 FEP I’ve been able to track out of the country was the ones to Ukraine that had been De-DU’d.

Allegedly approx 350 where De-Du’d, and around 800 in LTPS at Sierra

 

[suffolkowner]

Poland didn’t get M1A1 FEP, they got older US Army ones with CITV. Despite a lot of commentary to the contrary the only former USMC M1A1 FEP I’ve been able to track out of the country was the ones to Ukraine that had been De-DU’d.

Allegedly approx 350 where De-Du’d, and around 800 in LTPS at Sierra

i was more interested in the numbers. Wiki says FEP but DSCA just says M1A1

 

[FJAG]

Which would be fine. Having a Sqn or so of tanks in Wainwright for training (with maint pers) could allow reservists to confirm skills they train on simulators. I don’t think we’ll ever, even in my wildest dreams, see tanks housed in down town Winnipeg or Kelowna.

Reserve tanks are a nice thought, I think sub units are doable, possibly dispersed and forming a joint Regiment. For example A Sqn in Edmonton, B Sqn in Winnipeg. How far we can effectively move reservists for a weeks training before it becomes futile is probably a consideration. Of course the real limiting factor is budget and maintenance.

30/70 Baby!

A Reg F squadron in Edmonton and a ResF squadron in each of Edmonton and Calgary. Tanks and maintainers in Wainwright. Same again with a RegF squadron and maintainers in Shilo with a ResF squadron in each of Winnipeg and Moose Jaw. A ResF squadron (less maintainers) for a Type 44 regiment would be less than 60 folks. That's two bus loads.

SP artillery. Same deal but more people - say 120 per battery less maintainers who are all RegF and concentrated in the regt'l HQ and located with the equipment. Same locations.

If you go with a flyover brigade's equipment prepositioned in Latvia for major annual exercises you can add in Toronto and Montreal with roughly ten CC330 lifts.

There are many ways to do this - economically - once the will is there.

 

[daftandbarmy]

30/70 Baby!

A Reg F squadron in Edmonton and a ResF squadron in each of Edmonton and Calgary. Tanks and maintainers in Wainwright. Same again with a RegF squadron and maintainers in Shilo with a ResF squadron in each of Winnipeg and Moose Jaw. A ResF squadron (less maintainers) for a Type 44 regiment would be less than 60 folks. That's two bus loads.

SP artillery. Same deal but more people - say 120 per battery less maintainers who are all RegF and concentrated in the regt'l HQ and located with the equipment. Same locations.

If you go with a flyover brigade's equipment prepositioned in Latvia for major annual exercises you can add in Toronto and Montreal with roughly ten CC330 lifts.

There are many ways to do this - economically - once the will is there.

And ignore the Lower Mainland, the largest urban area population West of Toronto?

 

[markppcli]

And ignore the Lower Mainland, the largest urban area population West of Toronto?

I throw it into my “how far to get to the tanks” question. Probably close enough but I like the idea of not having to fly guys to exercises.