Canadian Federal Election 44 - Sep 2021

[Altair]

So there were 951k mail in ballots to be counted.

If 40 percent of them go liberal, that's 380k

If 23 percent go CPC, that's 218k

The popular vote could be 162k votes closer.

 

[Altair]

I'm just not clear on what the obstacle is exactly? The province can override, overrule and impose on municpal zoning decisions and official plans anytime they want not neglecting the fact that those plans had to have been previously approved in the first place

Yet here everyone is saying zoning is in the hands of municipalities

 

[KevinB]

One thing I think they can do is provide stable funding for cities. Cities have limited revenue collecting ability. So let's take something like the carbon tax, which the Feds say 90 percent is returned to citizens in form of rebates.

I say pardon?

Cites have significant more revenue collecting ability / capita than rural areas.
Land Values / SqFt are significantly higher, and all the infrastructure requirements are in a much smaller area / capita.

If a city can't manage it's budget - that is on the city - maybe they should sync the mayor and the city council, but they shouldn't get a bail out because the Mayor is snorting the budget up his nose (or is that just Moronto?)

 

[Remius]

I say pardon?

Cites have significant more revenue collecting ability / capita than rural areas.
Land Values / SqFt are significantly higher, and all the infrastructure requirements are in a much smaller area / capita.

If a city can't manage it's budget - that is on the city - maybe they should sync the mayor and the city council, but they shouldn't get a bail out because the Mayor is snorting the budget up his nose (or is that just Moronto?)

Part of the issue is that most of our municipalities are not organised along “party lines” so you end up with Mayors trying to enforce their will and vison and councillors only concerned for their wards and not the city as a whole.

 

[Altair]

I say pardon?

Cites have significant more revenue collecting ability / capita than rural areas.
Land Values / SqFt are significantly higher, and all the infrastructure requirements are in a much smaller area / capita.

And cities have the added expenses of large infrastructure projects, more public transit, municipal police budgets and countless other things that small rural areas do not need to deal with.

Especially since for a lot of cities, the people who use the services live outside the city itself and thus the city cannot collect taxes from those using the infrastructure.

If a city can't manage it's budget - that is on the city - maybe they should sync the mayor and the city council, but they shouldn't get a bail out because the Mayor is snorting the budget up his nose (or is that just Moronto?)

I always laugh at people dunking on Toronto. Toronto city debt is relatively small.

Montreal on the other hand has a debt the size of Toronto and a far smaller population and tax base to service it.

Lastly, I don't think John Tory or Valerie Plante are snorting budgets up their nose, but thank you for adding so much to the quality of the discussion here.

 

[Remius]

Yet here everyone is saying zoning is in the hands of municipalities

It is. In essence. Yes the province can intervene. But lots of municipalities are fractured along counsellor interests and not City vision. So one ward will refuse affordable housing or gentrification, another wants bike lanes and green spaces. Cities need vision and they don’t have it right now.

One thing the feds could do is divest itself of a lot of their real estate and buildings. Arrange to develop those into housing. With more PS working from home it seems like a no brainer.

 

[daftandbarmy]

It is. In essence. Yes the province can intervene. But lots of municipalities are fractured along counsellor interests and not City vision. So one ward will refuse affordable housing or gentrification, another wants bike lanes and green spaces. Cities need vision and they don’t have it right now.

One thing the feds could do is divest itself of a lot of their real estate and buildings. Arrange to develop those into housing. With more PS working from home it seems like a no brainer.

 

[KevinB]

And cities have the added expenses of large infrastructure projects, more public transit, municipal police budgets and countless other things that small rural areas do not need to deal with.

So you're telling me the city is unsustainable?
You have less requirements / capita, and less area to do it.

It's almost like the Bureaucracy has expanded to take care of the needs of the Bureaucracy...

Especially since for a lot of cities, the people who use the services live outside the city itself and thus the city cannot collect taxes from those using the infrastructure.

Mass Transit - raise fees - or have out of area user increases.
Non HOV Commuter Lanes get Tolls (I hate it - but it's a revenue offset for the costs).
NYC has a city rider on Income Tax.

If a metropolitan area can't sustain itself -- then it is a leech and shouldn't be supported.

I always laugh at people dunking on Toronto. Toronto city debt is relatively small.

Moronto makes itself a target - it thinks it is New York - or at least a significant portion of its population does.

Montreal on the other hand has a debt the size of Toronto and a far smaller population and tax base to service it.

Montreal has it's own issues, but La Belle Provance will take care of all.
Toronto is an easy example - and I like to pick on it, plus if I picked on Montreal - I'd be typing for days.

Lastly, I don't think John Tory or Valerie Plante are snorting budgets up their nose, but thank you for adding so much to the quality of the discussion here.

I guess you missed/ignored my jab at Rob Ford.

 

[Remius]

So you're telling me the city is unsustainable?
You have less requirements / capita, and less area to do it.

It's almost like the Bureaucracy has expanded to take care of the needs of the Bureaucracy...


Mass Transit - raise fees - or have out of area user increases.
Non HOV Commuter Lanes get Tolls (I hate it - but it's a revenue offset for the costs).
NYC has a city rider on Income Tax.

If a metropolitan area can't sustain itself -- then it is a leech and shouldn't be supported.


Moronto makes itself a target - it thinks it is New York - or at least a significant portion of its population does.


Montreal has it's own issues, but La Belle Provance will take care of all.
Toronto is an easy example - and I like to pick on it, plus if I picked on Montreal - I'd be typing for days.


I guess you missed/ignored my jab at Rob Ford.

The problem with transit fare hikes is if it becomes more of a hassle then people won’t take it. In Ottawa it costs about 110$ for pass. Then a gold pass for the park and ride is what? 60$? So I would pay 170$ a month when I could just pay 200$ for parking and save me the hassle. I gave up on public transit after the last strike we had.

Another issue is or was when a building would come down or a lot became vacant it would be turned into pay parking. Original. But did little to offset the housing issue.

 

[Altair]

So you're telling me the city is unsustainable?
You have less requirements / capita, and less area to do it.

Cities are one of the engines of our economy.

Quebec is a nice little example.

Quebec population 8.5 million.

Montréal population 1.78 million.

GDP of Quebec 377 billion.

GDP of Montréal 211 billion.

So 20 percent of the population is accounting for 55 percent of economic activity.

To say cities are not sustainable is assinine.

Municipalities, municipal budgets, those are unsustainable. Because those Municipalities as currently constructed cannot get enough revenue from their outsized economic output to service the needs of the city.

It's almost like the Bureaucracy has expanded to take care of the needs of the Bureaucracy...


Mass Transit - raise fees - or have out of area user increases.
Non HOV Commuter Lanes get Tolls (I hate it - but it's a revenue offset for the costs).
NYC has a city rider on Income Tax.

Raising fees on mass Transit only makes people take mass Transit less.

Tolls work but who votes for a party proposing Tolls?

so municipalities are stuck with their limited revenue sources, property tax, development charges and user fees.

It's like having a vast gold mine under you but you can only extract the wealth with a spoon.

If a metropolitan area can't sustain itself -- then it is a leech and shouldn't be supported.

Again, Montréal provides Quebec with 55 percent of its economic activity with 20 percent of the population. It's not a leech if anything, Montréal is subsidizing the rest of the Province.

the same holds true for places like Toronto and Ontario.

Moronto makes itself a target - it thinks it is New York - or at least a significant portion of its population does.

If you say so.

Montreal has it's own issues, but La Belle Provance will take care of all.
Toronto is an easy example - and I like to pick on it, plus if I picked on Montreal - I'd be typing for days.

Seems petty.

I guess you missed/ignored my jab at Rob Ford.

He's dead.

 

[mariomike]

I guess you missed/ignored my jab at Rob Ford.

Altair said,

He's dead.

He was powerless when alive.

As a matter of public safety, Council transferred his power to govern the city in a state of emergency to the Deputy Mayor.

 

[Altair]

Just for shits and giggles, I did Ontario and Toronto, because people love to dunk on Toronto so much.

GDP of Ontario 744 billion

GDP of Toronto 405 billion

Population of Ontario 14.5 million

Population of Toronto 2.9 million

So again, 20 percent of the population accounting for 54 percent of economic activity.

Very similar to Quebec.

Again, another example of the city pretty much subsidizing the province.

Edit: For people complaining about how the Albertan economy powers Canada, Alberta has a GDP of 334 billion. Smaller than the city of Toronto.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Zoning militates cost of accommodation, but not all types of accommodation. Enlightened zoning can't create standard 1/2 chain by 2 chain city lots out of nothing. When wonks discuss unhelpful zoning restrictions, they mean the restrictions preventing landowners and developers from turning blocks of detached houses and low-rise commercial into high-rise rabbit warrens with street-level commercial storefronts. Undeveloped or under-developed parcels of land in metro areas are, inevitably, too high-value to be repurposed for detached housing.

The only way to lower the cost of detached housing is to build more of it - enough to outstrip demand, so that prices fall - using inexpensive construction and finishing standards and practices, on small lots. That means building housing where there currently is none, which means in outlying areas. (Some new parcels can be created by subdividing large lots.)

Most of the "ideas" floated for alleviating housing costs - including subsidized childcare - will push up housing costs.

 

[QV]

GDP of Toronto 405 billion
For people complaining about how the Albertan economy powers Canada, Alberta has a GDP of 334 billion. Smaller than the city of Toronto.

How much equalization does Toronto pay to Alberta?

 

[Brad Sallows]

Again, another example of the city pretty much subsidizing the province.

That's not a complete picture. "The city" needs things that "the country" provides, and "the city" pays for those things by funding necessities and amenities for the people who live and work in "the country". Finish the picture and do the analysis before making facially inane claims.

 

[Altair]

How much equalization does Toronto pay to Alberta?

The same that Alberta pays to Toronto. 0.

 

[Altair]

Zoning militates cost of accommodation, but not all types of accommodation. Enlightened zoning can't create standard 1/2 chain by 2 chain city lots out of nothing. When wonks discuss unhelpful zoning restrictions, they mean the restrictions preventing landowners and developers from turning blocks of detached houses and low-rise commercial into high-rise rabbit warrens with street-level commercial storefronts. Undeveloped or under-developed parcels of land in metro areas are, inevitably, too high-value to be repurposed for detached housing.

All correct.

The only way to lower the cost of detached housing is to build more of it - enough to outstrip demand, so that prices fall - using inexpensive construction and finishing standards and practices, on small lots. That means building housing where there currently is none, which means in outlying areas. (Some new parcels can be created by subdividing large lots.)

Also all correct.

Most of the "ideas" floated for alleviating housing costs - including subsidized childcare - will push up housing costs.

This is not being floated as a idea to alleviate housing costs, it to make it daycare more affordable and increase workplace participation. Will that lead to people having more money in their hands either due to reduced childcare costs or being able to go back to work years earlier, yes, and will that money be used to purchase housing, yes, but its not a program with the housing market in mind.

 

[suffolkowner]

Yet here everyone is saying zoning is in the hand of municipalities

It is and it isn't. The zoning and official plans are approved by the municipality and then the province. Activities that fall within those approved plans and zoning are generally completely handled by the municipality and will not involve other municipalities, ministries or the province. In part because they have already commented and contributed and approved the plans. However circumstances change as do governments. Ususally you see non municipal involvement when changes are proposed which do not agree with the approved plan or zoning or when the municipality or ministry does not approve something for which the plan allows or approves. (This has been my experience in Ontario)

and then there are these

Ontario minister's zoning orders controversy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Brad Sallows]

Depends on the viewer. Some people think their child care costs are part of what keeps them out of the housing market in which they would like to be.

 

[Altair]

That's not a complete picture. "The city" needs things that "the country" provides, and "the city" pays for those things by funding necessities and amenities for the people who live and work in "the country". Finish the picture and do the analysis before making facially inane claims.

Those things being less in economic value than what the city produces. Not to mention that rural areas then to produce more of whatever they produce than the city needs, which means its usually destined for international markets, or interprovincial markets, which is of less immediate importance to the city in question.

Moving back to Quebec, as they have less urban areas in comparison to Ontario and thus makes for a less messy picture, the two metro areas, Montréal and Quebec City, combined population 2.33 million do not require all of the 6.2 million rural Quebec to function.