Canadian modular assault rifle project, a C7 replacement?

[markppcli]

I appreciate you and others wanting to move forward with tech. I recall many years ago when we first got GPS receivers the "old school" was harrumphing about that too. Keep moving forward.

They still do. We have to teach the basics of the DAGR to guys in their pre jtac because most will never actually use it - as “map and compass skills” wins over let use what’s in the tool box.

 

[Fabius]

The project seems to be moving along quickly, user trials are happening this summer for 6 months. However with all projects, roll out seems to be slowed by budget, so it may take a couple years to go CAF wide.

Any idea what unit is doing the user trials?

 

[MilEME09]

Any idea what unit is doing the user trials?

Nope, though the RCR seems to do them a lot, so i wouldn't be surprised if it was one of those battalions

 

[OldSolduer]

They still do. We have to teach the basics of the DAGR to guys in their pre jtac because most will never actually use it - as “map and compass skills” wins over let use what’s in the tool box.

Unfortunately humans are like this. Map and compass are essential and have to be taught so it’s second nature. The GPS systems need to be taught as well because that’s the systems need for those fine detail things. Like calling for fire and fast air etc.

 

[markppcli]

Unfortunately humans are like this. Map and compass are essential and have to be taught so it’s second nature. The GPS systems need to be taught as well because that’s the systems need for those fine detail things. Like calling for fire and fast air etc.

I get that, but I still it’s unacceptable that we push people away from using equipment to hit those fundamentals. In fact more often than not I think it’s to do with lazy NCOs that don’t want to learn new equipment.

 

[OldSolduer]

I get that, but I still it’s unacceptable that we push people away from using equipment to hit those fundamentals. In fact more often than not I think it’s to do with lazy NCOs that don’t want to learn new equipment.

Fear is part of it too. Unwilling to adapt to the times is a thing.

 

[KevinB]

Nope, though the RCR seems to do them a lot, so i wouldn't be surprised if it was one of those battalions

Depends on if they want honest feedback. If they don’t they give it to a Vandoo BN.

Rarely does the Army of the West get input, because PPCLI give feedback…

 

[markppcli]

Depends on if they want honest feedback. If they don’t they give it to a Vandoo BN.

Rarely does the Army of the West get input, because PPCLI give feedback…

While I love a good sense of western indignation, the RCR mostly does the trials because of their proximity to DLR.

 

[KevinB]

While I love a good sense of western indignation, the RCR mostly does the trials because of their proximity to DLR.

One may think a program like that probably could get input from each Regiment…

 

[OldSolduer]

One may think a program like that probably could get input from each Regiment…

oh please next thing you will want is a unicorn

 

[markppcli]

One may think a program like that probably could get input from each Regiment…

I don’t think the badge on your head will overly effect how you move shoot and communicate

 

[KevinB]

I don’t think the badge on your head will overly effect how you move shoot and communicate

No, but I’m old enough to remember feedback given to DLR on the C7A2…

 

[Fabius]

Apparently the trial is fairly extensive. 3 Bns across all 3 regular regiments, one reserve unit plus NTOG will get rifles to trial in four variants. Variants only differ in optics. 2 optics are fixed 5x, one optic is a LPVO 1-6 and then a red dot to round out the four.

The Bns are supposed to get approximately enough rifles to outfit a Coy and the units will all get 3 months to test them.

Might be interesting to see the results on the new PWTs between the legacy C7/8 with Elcans and the four new configurations.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Apparently the trial is fairly extensive. 3 Bns across all 3 regular regiments, one reserve unit plus NTOG will get rifles to trial in four variants. Variants only differ in optics. 2 optics are fixed 5x, one optic is a LPVO 1-6 and then a red dot to round out the four.

The Bns are supposed to get approximately enough rifles to outfit a Coy and the units will all get 3 months to test them.

Might be interesting to see the results on the new PWTs between the legacy C7/8 with Elcans and the four new configurations.

Go NTOG!!

 

[daftandbarmy]

I don’t think the badge on your head will overly effect how you move shoot and communicate

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Unfortunately humans are like this. Map and compass are essential and have to be taught so it’s second nature. The GPS systems need to be taught as well because that’s the systems need for those fine detail things. Like calling for fire and fast air etc.

You need the basic to know when the fancy equipment is wrong. I have seen GPS/Loran all give wacky readings for various reasons (Like when your HDOP sucks). A good grounding in map and compass, allows a user to get the best out of the modern systems and account for errors.

 

[NavyShooter]

I had a friend teach me something new about marksmanship this weekend.

There's a new acronym as it relates to shooting and hitting...it is summed up with three words:

Wind, Trajectory, Fundamentals.

W T F

Any missed shot will be a result of one of the above.

If we look at PWT 1 - it's fired at 100m to remove the Wind and Trajectory factors, meaning that the soldiers only need to focus on the fundamentals.

Looking at more advanced marksmanship skillsets, those are mostly grouped around managing the trajectory (ballistic drop compensation/etc) and wind factors (hold or click off).

Most soldiers don't know how to zero their current optic properly, or bore-sight it if they can't get a chance to zero it. If they cannot zero, how can they manage the Trajectory and the Wind even if they are doing the Fundamentals perfectly.

Again.....W T F

I hope there's a robust opportunity to train the troops using those optics. At this point, it's less about the rifle - it's an M-16/C-7/C-8 platform....that's nothing new. It's literally a platform from the 1960s. It's the optic which will make a difference, and the suppressor will help with the 'communicate' part of Shoot Move Communicate.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I had a friend teach me something new about marksmanship this weekend.

There's a new acronym as it relates to shooting and hitting...it is summed up with three words:

Wind, Trajectory, Fundamentals.

W T F

Any missed shot will be a result of one of the above.

If we look at PWT 1 - it's fired at 100m to remove the Wind and Trajectory factors, meaning that the soldiers only need to focus on the fundamentals.

Looking at more advanced marksmanship skillsets, those are mostly grouped around managing the trajectory (ballistic drop compensation/etc) and wind factors (hold or click off).

Most soldiers don't know how to zero their current optic properly, or bore-sight it if they can't get a chance to zero it. If they cannot zero, how can they manage the Trajectory and the Wind even if they are doing the Fundamentals perfectly.

Again.....W T F

I hope there's a robust opportunity to train the troops using those optics. At this point, it's less about the rifle - it's an M-16/C-7/C-8 platform....that's nothing new. It's literally a platform from the 1960s. It's the optic which will make a difference, and the suppressor will help with the 'communicate' part of Shoot Move Communicate.

There's also 'effective enemy fire', which can throw folks off too

 

[Fabius]

I agree that the optic piece is maybe the most interesting part of the program along with an actual MLOCK forend and suppressor. The rifle itself is as has been said just another M4/M16/C7/C8.
Slight amendment to my earlier post the optics are as follows:

Fixed 5x Optic from Sig with red dot
Fixed 5x Optic from Steiner with red dot
LPVO 1-6x from Burris with red dot ( Assuming the RT-6 with Fast Fire)
LPVO 1-6 from Primary Arms with no red dot (Assuming the SLx series)

I am assuming that the red dots being referred to are all micro's either offset or mounted at the 12 oclock on top of the main optics.
I am not sure what fixed 5x are being used, that choice honestly confuses me even with a micro red dot. I am surprised they did not go with a balance of red dot only, 1-6 LPVO, 1-8 LVPO and then 1-10 LPVO with perhaps a top mounted micro and then off set micro. That along with some different reticle options would be an interesting trial.

As an aside in terms of the PWTs, initial indications seem to be that the new rifle/carbine PWTs are more difficult to pass and that shooters will need to actually fire more practices. The PWT 1 standing grouping at 100m seems to have a particularly high failure rate.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I had a friend teach me something new about marksmanship this weekend.

There's a new acronym as it relates to shooting and hitting...it is summed up with three words:

Wind, Trajectory, Fundamentals.

W T F

Any missed shot will be a result of one of the above.

If we look at PWT 1 - it's fired at 100m to remove the Wind and Trajectory factors, meaning that the soldiers only need to focus on the fundamentals.

Looking at more advanced marksmanship skillsets, those are mostly grouped around managing the trajectory (ballistic drop compensation/etc) and wind factors (hold or click off).

Most soldiers don't know how to zero their current optic properly, or bore-sight it if they can't get a chance to zero it. If they cannot zero, how can they manage the Trajectory and the Wind even if they are doing the Fundamentals perfectly.

Again.....W T F

I hope there's a robust opportunity to train the troops using those optics. At this point, it's less about the rifle - it's an M-16/C-7/C-8 platform....that's nothing new. It's literally a platform from the 1960s. It's the optic which will make a difference, and the suppressor will help with the 'communicate' part of Shoot Move Communicate.

I so want to teach that acronym to my Cadets.......