Canadian modular assault rifle project, a C7 replacement?

[KevinB]

Out of all the kit we need as a military a rifle is pretty low priority. We have good rifles, they are solid reliable pieces of kit. We lack in many more important things, supply vehicles, AA, Ships, Planes, AT, etc.

We could still be using the original C7s and I would still say there is much more important things to invest in. Just wasting money buying a new rifle because its shiny at the moment.

Disagree, the CAF has no useful method of mounting MFAL and Lights outside CANSOF.
You can’t do shot at night without suppressors, lasers and NODs.

Only chumps chose to fight in the day.

 

[markppcli]

I actually disagree. Our small arms are largely refurbished 30 yr old receivers. I’ve been witnessing, and I realize this is anecdotal, a definite increase in failing parts, especially extractors, and I suspect metal fatigue is starting to creep in. It’s worse in the C9s, and the C6A1 is it’s own fiasco. While I agree supply vehicles are important, they exists to support the guys holding the rifles and if those don’t work what’s the point?

 

[markppcli]

Disagree, the CAF has no useful method of mounting MFAL and Lights outside CANSOF.
You can’t do shot at night without suppressors, lasers and NODs.

Only chumps chose to fight in the day.

You’d hate to read 3 VPs AAR from Ft Polk, we are behind peer and near peer adversaries and should not try to fight them at night.

 

[KevinB]

You’d hate to read 3 VPs AAR from Ft Polk, we are behind peer and near peer adversaries and should not try to fight them at night.

Yes Chumps

It’s sad and criminal that the CAF are effectively half blind (at best) at night

 

[Halifax Tar]

I actually disagree. Our small arms are largely refurbished 30 yr old receivers. I’ve been witnessing, and I realize this is anecdotal, a definite increase in failing parts, especially extractors, and I suspect metal fatigue is starting to creep in. It’s worse in the C9s, and the C6A1 is it’s own fiasco. While I agree supply vehicles are important, they exists to support the guys holding the rifles and if those don’t work what’s the point?

I mean new rifles are great but if you cant move people or material to the battlefield nor sustain them in contact the rifles quickly become baseball bats. And the pointy breaks.

Step one stop making this 1 vs the other and realise all this stuff is needed. As when one link in th chain fails the chain it's self is useless.

 

[KevinB]

I mean new rifles are great but if you cant move people or material to the battlefield nor sustain them in contact the rifles quickly become baseball bats. And the pointy breaks.

Step one stop making this 1 vs the other and realise all this stuff is needed. As when one link in th chain fails the chain it's self is useless.

Meh, there is a L in PPCLI, Mark can walk

 

[markppcli]

Meh, there is a L in PPCLI, Mark can walk

These days a limp is more accurate.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Disagree, the CAF has no useful method of mounting MFAL and Lights outside CANSOF.
You can’t do shot at night without suppressors, lasers and NODs.

Only chumps chose to fight in the day.

You’d hate to read 3 VPs AAR from Ft Polk, we are behind peer and near peer adversaries and should not try to fight them at night.

You can night fight without that equipment, it just isn’t ideal. For example flares are a option. My concern is we spend so much time trying to get every little bit we can out of a few platforms to the detriment of all others.

We lack the equipment to bring bullets, lack the equipment to protect those bringing the bullets, lack the arty to provide a effective firebase for any length of time in a sustained fight (as Ukraine is proving towed arty is effective against the Taliban, not nearly as effective when the enemy can return effective fire), and a basically have a complete inability to protect against AA and armour.

Not to mention the ships we need to replace, planes we need to replace, and all the other items that seriously need a update.

Ideally we would have all the kit we need, but realistically we need to pick some areas we are critical/completely lacking and improve it before we update and upgrade a system which is already fairly modern. Its much like the pistol modernization, I would rather see that money spent on something else which shall bring much more for the CF than a pistol will.

 

[Jarnhamar]

You can night fight without that equipment, it just isn’t ideal. For example flares are a option.

Yikes, no thank you.

 

[KevinB]

Flares? Dude you are dead before you can put them up.


I’m getting really heated about some utterly dated opinions that clearly haven’t been fighting in the past 10 years or even bothered to stay abreast of what’s happening currently.


Yes the CAF is broken currently and maybe could fight a near peer action against Swaziland.

It can’t be viewed as this or that at this point in time - there is a massive shopping list the CAF needs of kit, if it plans to even be viewed as moderately useful in a coalition.

 

[markppcli]

You can night fight without that equipment, it just isn’t ideal. For example flares are a option. My concern is we spend so much time trying to get every little bit we can out of a few platforms to the detriment of all others.

We lack the equipment to bring bullets, lack the equipment to protect those bringing the bullets, lack the arty to provide a effective firebase for any length of time in a sustained fight (as Ukraine is proving towed arty is effective against the Taliban, not nearly as effective when the enemy can return effective fire), and a basically have a complete inability to protect against AA and armour.

Not to mention the ships we need to replace, planes we need to replace, and all the other items that seriously need a update.

Ideally we would have all the kit we need, but realistically we need to pick some areas we are critical/completely lacking and improve it before we update and upgrade a system which is already fairly modern. Its much like the pistol modernization, I would rather see that money spent on something else which shall bring much more for the CF than a pistol will.

Flares? Jesus Christ.

The pistol procurement is a requirement because the existing stocks are failing, dated, and are the number one source of accidental discharges.

Yes we have other shortfalls, no one questions that, but capital procurement isn’t a matter of one or the other.

Fundamentally every conflict breaks down to the soldiers ability to apply violence to the enemy, so those tools need to be sorted out.

 

[brihard]

For those better informed- is there any lingering argument for regular line infantry in this day and age to be using 20” barrels? Who’s at the front of the pack for figuring out what line infantry need these days, and issuing it?

Someone upthread mentioned ubiquitous SRAAW and MANPADS that will have to be carried. More argument in favour of carbines I would think.

The discussion of night fighting is compelling. That, plus optics and illumination, means several items of shit-stuck-to-gun. Rails add weight; a system like M-LOK shaves a bit of that.

There seems to be an increasing argument for regular troops to have suppressors as well. I’d heard USMC is going that way across the board?

While this kit adds up in costs, it would still seem to be a drop in the bucket compared to major equipment like jets and ships.

Dead troops are expensive too.

 

[markppcli]

For those better informed- is there any lingering argument for regular line infantry in this day and age to be using 20” barrels? Who’s at the front of the pack for figuring out what line infantry need these days, and issuing it?

Someone upthread mentioned ubiquitous SRAAW and MANPADS that will have to be carried. More argument in favour of carbines I would think.

The discussion of night fighting is compelling. That, plus optics and illumination, means several items of shit-stuck-to-gun. Rails add weight; a system like M-LOK shaves a bit of that.

There seems to be an increasing argument for regular troops to have suppressors as well. I’d heard USMC is going that way across the board?

While this kit adds up in costs, it would still seem to be a drop in the bucket compared to major equipment like jets and ships.

Dead troops are expensive too.

My understanding is we’re moving towards carbines for all. I’d previously spoken to some DLR types and the arguments about loosing 20 fps seem to have finally been killed.

 

[Good2Golf]

My understanding is we’re moving towards carbines for all. I’d previously spoken to some DLR types and the arguments about loosing 20 fps seem to have finally been killed.

Thank F!

 

[KevinB]

My personal opinion is if you need a barrel longer than 11.5” on a 5.56mm gun you probably should not be using a 5.56mm gun.
I’d rather have a 11.5” with can and a 1-6x variable optic than a 14.5” or 16” barrel TBH, but I understand that’s a bridge to far at this point in time, as the only way that works if if you have either two uppers to chose, or section/team level 14.5” 6.5CM guns too (or both).

USASOC is currently going to a 11.5” carbine standard (removing the 10.3” Mk18 and 14.5” M4), retaining the 14.5” mid length gas system URGI upper - and adopted the 14.5” and 22” 6.5CM uppers for the M110.
LAMG is on hold currently (better spelled LWGPMG) in SOCOM while companies rework some of their guns because apparently only 1 company read the SOW.



The 20” barrel is ludicrous in this day and age.



USMC and US Army are going 100% suppressed for the small arms fleet (outside of pistol).

 

[markppcli]

My personal opinion is if you need a barrel longer than 11.5” on a 5.56mm gun you probably should not be using a 5.56mm gun.
I’d rather have a 11.5” with can and a 1-6x variable optic than a 14.5” or 16” barrel TBH, but I understand that’s a bridge to far at this point in time, as the only way that works if if you have either two uppers to chose, or section/team level 14.5” 6.5CM guns too (or both).

USASOC is currently going to a 11.5” carbine standard (removing the 10.3” Mk18 and 14.5” M4), retaining the 14.5” mid length gas system URGI upper - and adopted the 14.5” and 22” 6.5CM uppers for the M110.
LAMG is on hold currently (better spelled LWGPMG) in SOCOM while companies rework some of their guns because apparently only 1 company read the SOW.



The 20” barrel is ludicrous in this day and age.



USMC and US Army are going 100% suppressed for the small arms fleet (outside of pistol).

I’ve had my eyes opened about the effectiveness of an 11 inch barrel at 1-300 m by a friend at the RCMP. He also showed me what white phosphorous dual tubes look like and I and overcome with jealousy.

 

[Haggis]

The 20” barrel is ludicrous in this day and age.

But... the Drill Manual!!!

 

[Remius]

But... the Drill Manual!!!

Is already moving to carbine drill.

 

[KevinB]

But... the Drill Manual!!!

I know you are being sarcastic, but the CAF could easily retain some rifles for certain applications- the USMC and US Army retain old M1903 Springfield 30-06 bolt action rifles for those purposes.

Rest on your arms reverse is a little tough with a carbine

 

[ArmyRick]

I know you are being sarcastic, but the CAF could easily retain some rifles for certain applications- the USMC and US Army retain old M1903 Springfield 30-06 bolt action rifles for those purposes.

Rest on your arms reverse is a little tough with a carbine

Or we look at it in reverse. Officers can carry swords into battle in 2022, no? Saves on small arms for them