Canadian River Class Destroyer Megathread

[Colin Parkinson]

Irving is going to have a similar issue, but as each Flight of ships changes, they can keep a core group going. Davie is going to have similar issues as well.

 

[suffolkowner]

Irving is going to have a similar issue, but as each Flight of ships changes, they can keep a core group going. Davie is going to have similar issues as well.

maybe we need a national design bureau instead of at the shipyard since we dont have a national shipyard but 3 of them?

 

[JMCanada]

The next build after the Polar Class is 16 hulls, so the design bureau will not have a lot of work to do. Unless they contract out their expertise to other countries that want to build their own hulls, but don't have an experienced design team. Even if they get the Corvette design gig, that will extend their work for 2-3 more years, then the same issue pops up. Canada could ask them to design a bunch of small ships, like a sub rescue ship, Mine Clearance vessel, AOP's replacement, Improved JSS, while marketing their skills abroad.

I agree, and that's one reason why I advocate for the MCDVs to be replaced by ...

6 corvettes or light frigates (like Type 31 or the previously called European Patrol corvette), in the range of 4000 tons and 90 crew, capable to take some load from the Halifax/CRD, and ...

6 small OPVs, around 2000 tons, 40 crew, in line with Vard's Vigilance, capable for MCM, show the flag in non contested areas and train reservists.

 

[GR66]

The next build after the Polar Class is 16 hulls, so the design bureau will not have a lot of work to do. Unless they contract out their expertise to other countries that want to build their own hulls, but don't have an experienced design team. Even if they get the Corvette design gig, that will extend their work for 2-3 more years, then the same issue pops up. Canada could ask them to design a bunch of small ships, like a sub rescue ship, Mine Clearance vessel, AOP's replacement, Improved JSS, while marketing their skills abroad.

Or maybe USV's? Something to carry those strike length VLS cells that Adm. Topshee is eager for?

 

[Rainbow1910]

Interesting podcast with Procurement Canada Deputy Minister and Seaspan’s CEO. Near the end Seaspan says that they are 18 months to 2 years away from laying off designers. He said projects like the Corvettes need to be on the runway because Canada has spent billions getting this expertise and we cannot piss it away AGAIN (my words)

I was under the impression that a great deal of the design work that the RCN/CCG does is contracted out to professional international firms like Vard, due to the fact that Canadian domestic yards/Canadian govt organizations do not have in house designers anymore?

Maybe we could use a submarine rescue ship.

The RCN really does need some capability like the RN is looking at with their Multi-Role Ocean Surveillance Ship, make it large enough and you can also fit a robust submarine rescue capability alongside hydrographic surveys, mine warfare, ROV use, research and most importantly, seabed warfare to counter Russian/Chinese attack on key infrastructure.

Not to surprised by that. Given the CMC timeframe it probably would slot in fairly quickly. And oddly enough given the sizes involved Seaspan probably has capacity to build hulls in Vancouver and then do combat systems in Victoria while still working on the various CCG vessels.

Seaspan has 16 Multi-Purpose Vessels to build for the CCG, I can't see them having the space or time to fit CMMC in there without delays somewhere.

 

[Halifax Tar]

To me, Ideally, as a class comes online it's replacement should already be deep into the design phase.

We should have a constant build and retire cycle.

 

[Underway]

Seaspan has 16 Multi-Purpose Vessels to build for the CCG, I can't see them having the space or time to fit CMMC in there without delays somewhere.

Depends on the urgency of military vs civilian. It's not like they haven't moved things around before (JSS and Icebreaker). Gov't sets the priorities.

I do like the deepsea (arctic) sub tender/rescue idea though. Not sure if we need it but I like the thinking. Ideally though sub rescue should have an air deployable aspect to it. Need to figure out what the submarines first though. Seaspan may be involved with that.

 

[Kirkhill]

To me, Ideally, as a class comes online it's replacement should already be deep into the design phase.

We should have a constant build and retire cycle.

4 ships and then another 4 ships and then another 4 ships....

And concurrently 8 small ships and 8 small ships and 8 small ships....

And concurrently 2 subs and 2 subs and 2 subs ...

5 to 7 year intervals.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

and sell them while there is still useful life in them to our allies.

 

[Cloud Cover]

The 3 RC destroyers are now approaching or potentially exceeding the cost Zumwalt class destroyers. Let that “sink” in.
Thank you shipbuilders/ prime contractor/ bureaucracy.

 

[OldSolduer]

The 3 RC destroyers are now approaching or potentially exceeding the cost Zumwalt class destroyers. Let that “sink” in.
Thank you Irving.

There is a saying:

Every so often we execute an Admiral for the encouragement of the others.

Maybe we could change that to "shipyard owner"?

 

[Cloud Cover]

There is a saying:

Every so often we execute an Admiral for the encouragement of the others.

Maybe we could change that to "shipyard owner"?

I don’t think it’s an Admiral that needs to be executed.

Edit: fixed that shipyard owner part. Good idea.

 

[Maxman1]

Depends on the urgency of military vs civilian. It's not like they haven't moved things around before (JSS and Icebreaker). Gov't sets the priorities.

I do like the deepsea (arctic) sub tender/rescue idea though. Not sure if we need it but I like the thinking. Ideally though sub rescue should have an air deployable aspect to it. Need to figure out what the submarines first though. Seaspan may be involved with that.

They could probably modify the design of one of their icebreakers; being able to transit the Arctic if a sub is stranded there would be a great benefit. And maybe even have it be dual purpose for oceanic survey to replace  Quest.

 

[Fabius]

Interesting podcast with Procurement Canada Deputy Minister and Seaspan’s CEO. Near the end Seaspan says that they are 18 months to 2 years away from laying off designers. He said projects like the Corvettes need to be on the runway because Canada has spent billions getting this expertise and we cannot piss it away AGAIN (my words)

Seems like the next 18 months will see a key indicator on if Canada has learned anything in the last 15 years and if we were and are serious about rebuilding and maintaining a national sovereign ship building capability.

 

[Underway]

The 3 RC destroyers are now approaching or potentially exceeding the cost Zumwalt class destroyers. Let that “sink” in.
Thank you shipbuilders/ prime contractor/ bureaucracy.

Not even close.

Canada does full life cycle costing. Includes spares, training, ammunition etc... US does sail away cost. Not to mention plenty of US programs split costs, like mk41vls is a separate program, comms a separate program, both of which provide equipment to US ships under a different line item.

 

[dapaterson]

The project costs for Canadian ships (acquisition and initial sparing) are significantly higher than comparable nations; however, comparators generally did not permit the implosion of their shipbuilding industry and are not simultaneously paying to rebuild it.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Depends on the urgency of military vs civilian. It's not like they haven't moved things around before (JSS and Icebreaker). Gov't sets the priorities.

I do like the deepsea (arctic) sub tender/rescue idea though. Not sure if we need it but I like the thinking. Ideally though sub rescue should have an air deployable aspect to it. Need to figure out what the submarines first though. Seaspan may be involved with that.

The Multi-Purpose Vessels are fairly urgent procurements, given they are required to replace the ancient Type 1100 class vessels which all hail from the mid 1980's. Given their roles are primarily icebreaking, search & rescue and the direct upkeep of our maritime shipping networks, it would be unwise to delay such important vessels.

Not even close.

Canada does full life cycle costing. Includes spares, training, ammunition etc... US does sail away cost. Not to mention plenty of US programs split costs, like mk41vls is a separate program, comms a separate program, both of which provide equipment to US ships under a different line item.

Yes from what I've been able to see once one attempts to strip away as much of the program "fat" as possible, Canada really isn't paying some outlandish cost in comparison to the UK and AUS cost estimates I've seen. People in the legacy media with axes to grind and even folks like Perun in the "new media" have all done an excellent job on misrepresenting the costs of Canadian procurement more generally, where it looks like we're sometimes paying nuclear powered supercarrier costs for far less capable vessels.

 

[Maxman1]

On second thought, cramming everything into one ship isn't a good idea, especially with two wildly different capabilities. Better to just order a second OOSV and have it crewed the same as Quest was, and have Seaspan design a separate ship for submarine rescue, and maybe some depot stores.

 

[Swampbuggy]

On second thought, cramming everything into one ship isn't a good idea, especially with two wildly different capabilities. Better to just order a second OOSV and have it crewed the same as Quest was, and have Seaspan design a separate ship for submarine rescue, and maybe some depot stores.

I often wondered why the OOSV wasn’t at least a 2 ship class. I understand she’s going to the east coast, but do we not need a similar vessel for the west?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I often wondered why the OOSV wasn’t at least a 2 ship class. I understand she’s going to the east coast, but do we not need a similar vessel for the west?

For the moment everything is a 1 for 1 replacement, they don't have the authority to expand the fleet I suspect. Generally they use the Tanu or the Tully for research

Tanu is old, but the guys love her as she is a good sea boat.