Cap Badges

[BinRat55]

Mess kit is not a requirement for NCM's. Only a white shirt and a bow tie is the cost of a required NCM mess dress... If an NCM "chooses" to purchase mess kit they "choose" to purchase all the accoutrement's too.

 

[armyvern]

The only things I purchased for the DEU's was my Branch buttons, Branch flashing for the Shirt slip ons, and eventually the Branch Cerenmonial Belt Buckle. Everthing else was issued from Clothing. No idea why they made you buy every out of pocket. ???

If someone wants to argue/insinuate that I don't have "pride" in my trade or my uniform because I don't wear "Logistical" buttons on it or slip-ons purchased from the kit-shop ...

Bring it on.

I wear Army Lions with pride, and I'm quite sure that I'm a pretty proud Supply tech and Loggie too. Buttons and badges do not for "pride" make - attitude and respect for one's uniform and Country does - regardless of which buttons happen to be worn on it.

 

[armyvern]

Mess kit is not a requirement for NCM's. Only a white shirt and a bow tie is the cost of a required NCM mess dress... If an NCM "chooses" to purchase mess kit they "choose" to purchase all the accoutrement's too.

True.

However, it again is "strongly encouraged" (NOT mandatory - thus STILL voluntary) for NCMs once they surpass that Snr NCO rank level (Sgts) and become Warrant Officers.

"Strongly encouraged" does not equal "mandatory".

And, I've seen a Sgt sucessfully argue that he could not be "forced" to purchase with his own money a white shirt and bow tie either if it were indeed "mandatory for wear". 

 

[SupersonicMax]

BinRat, can you find the reference where it says its a requirement for officers??  I've been looking but can't find..

Vern:  showing your colors is showing pride in your unit. .  Same goes with flying units with badges and this goes all the way back to WW1 flying units.   That's probably the number 1 reason flying units (fighter squadrons particularly) always want to wear color badges instead of the mandatory subdued badges.  It shows their colors.  

 

[Eye In The Sky]

True.

However, it again is "strongly encouraged" (NOT mandatory - thus STILL voluntary) for NCMs once they surpass that Snr NCO rank level (Sgts) and become Warrant Officers.

"Strongly encouraged" does not equal "mandatory".

And, I've seen a Sgt sucessfully argue that he could not be "forced" to purchase with his own money a white shirt and bow tie either if it were indeed "mandatory for wear". 

Which leads to a question of why are white tux shirts and black bow ties not added to the list of non-operational clothing available using our points on Logistik Unicorps?  Problem solved.

 

[armyvern]

BinRat, can you find the reference where it says its a requirement for officers??  I've been looking but can't find..

Vern:  showing your colors is showing pride in your unit. .  Same goes with flying units with badges and this goes all the way back to WW1 flying units.   That's probably the number 1 reason flying units (fighter squadrons particularly) always want to wear color badges instead of the mandatory subdued badges.  It shows their colors.  

SSM,

Let me assure you that I most certainly DO have pride in my uniform, my trade, and my branch DESPITE the fact that I do NOT wear it's buttons.

One does NOT need badges and buttons to show pride; they might be "nice to haves", but they are far from "NECESSARY" to haves.  If you won't have any "pride" in your Unit or trade without a button or a badge --- that'd be your problem, not mine.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Vern:  I don't need them to HAVE pride, but it SHOWS that I have pride in my unit.  2 different concepts.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

BinRat, can you find the reference where it says its a requirement for officers??  I've been looking but can't find..

The only reference in CFP 265 I've ever been able to find is Chapter 6, Annex B Mess Dress - No. 2, Para 5 which states:

5.  No. 2B Order

a.  No. 2B mess service is an optional uniform for wear by the following personnel in preference to No. 3 service dress on occasions when mess dress is considered appropriate:

1.  (1) newly commissioned Regular Force officers during the six months accorded them to obtain mess dress; and

(2) all other members.


I didn't look exhaustively though as...well it doesn't apply to me personally.  

 

[armyvern]

Which leads to a question of why are white tux shirts and black bow ties not added to the list of non-operational clothing available using our points on Logistik Unicorps?  Problem solved.

Because Logistik Unicorp supplies DEU uniform parts that are mandatory for wear --- and even at that, they are a CIVILIAN company which makes available to us only those "mandatory" DEU items that they are the manufacturer of.

Your other mandatory DEU items such as cap badges, collar dogs, rank slip-ons that are provided by other contractors don't come from Logisitik either.

The taxpayer does NOT pay for "non-mandatory for wear" items, thus you will NOT find Logisitk-Unicorp providing you with "free tux shirts/bow-ties" using your "taxpayer funded" points.

In short, if it's mandatory for wear - the Crown will pay, be that by issuing it to you, or by providing it you via points at Logistik etc.

If it's not mandatory for wear ... you pay; that's a choice you make because it's only an "optional for wear item" and is thus not a taxpayer funded item.

 

[armyvern]

The only reference in CFP 265 I've ever been able to find is Chapter 6, Annex B Mess Dress - No. 2, Para 5 which states:

5.  No. 2B Order

a.  No. 2B mess service is an optional uniform for wear by the following personnel in preference to No. 3 service dress on occasions when mess dress is considered appropriate:

1.  (1) newly commissioned Regular Force officers during the six months accorded them to obtain mess dress; and

(2) all other members.


I didn't look exhaustively though as...well it doesn't apply to me personally.  

Mess Dress is "optional" for wear by Officers of the Reg F during their first 6 months after commissioning; after 6 months it is no longer "optional", as they've had their 6 months grace period to obtain it.

 

[SupersonicMax]

ArmyVern, then a follow up questions ref your last 2 posts.  You stated :

In short, if it's mandatory for wear - the Crown will pay, be that by issuing it to you, or by providing it you via points at Logistik etc.

If it's not mandatory for wear ... you pay; that's a choice you make because it's only an "optional for wear item" and is thus not a taxpayer funded item.

and

Mess Dress is "optional" for wear by Officers of the Reg F during their first 6 months after commissioning; after 6 months it is no longer "optional", as they've had their 6 months grace period to obtain it.

So, wouldn't the Crown be supposed to pay for it 6 months after commissionning?

 

[armyvern]

Vern:  I don't need them to HAVE pride, but it SHOWS that I have pride in my unit.  2 different concepts.

And, the concept that you "don't NEED it" is exactly why the Crown doesn't pay for it. Simple enough concept for you now? You've just admitted that you don't "need" it.

Concept 1: If you "NEED" it, the Crown will pay/provide for you;

Concept 2: If you don't "NEED" it, the Crown will not ... it's a "nice" to have, not a "necessary" to have.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I was talking about color patches which aren't even allowed anyways.  However, my subdued patches are mandatory to wear on my flying suit, according to my Squadron Orders.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Mess Dress is "optional" for wear by Officers of the Reg F during their first 6 months after commissioning; after 6 months it is no longer "optional", as they've had their 6 months grace period to obtain it.

Roger, I get that...I think what SSM is looking for is the reference that says "Officers in the Regular Force shall purchase Mess Kit IAW their DEU ..." or that states what you posted, and I've never been able to find that, only what I posted above.

Taking into consideration your reply to the 'mandatory/required' vice 'optional' items of clothing for wear...if a Mess Kit is not 'optional' for Commissioned Members, how come it is not provided to the mbr?  If Mess Kits are not optional for some mbrs, then that should be provided to those mbr?

 

[armyvern]

I was talking about color patches which aren't even allowed anyways.  However, my subdued patches are mandatory to wear on my flying suit, according to my Squadron Orders.

Your Squadron Orders which, has already been pointed out to you, are in complete contradiction of NATIONAL 1 CAD Directives and Orders.

I'd be taking the CO who is overruling 1 CAD Policy the receipt and asking when he's re-imbursing you from his wallet for his "making" you buy those patchs despite 1 CAD policy that states that he can't do such a thing.

Last time I checked, Sqn CO couldn't over-rule national policy - we have a CoC in place for a reason.

 

[SupersonicMax]

And, the concept that you "don't NEED it" is exactly why the Crown doesn't pay for it. Simple enough concept for you now? You've just admitted that you don't "need" it.

Concept 1: If you "NEED" it, the Crown will pay/provide for you;

Concept 2: If you don't "NEED" it, the Crown will not ... it's a "nice" to have, not a "necessary" to have.

Okay, but need is broad.  The crown will pay if you need it for a purpose.  What's that purpose?  Because I have tons of kit I don't need to carry my duties in my day to day work and the Supply won't take it back...  You have to be more specific

FYI:  I'm just playing the devil's advocate.  I'm just trying to get to understand the system better.  I do have a mess kit (which was okay for me to pay) and I don't mind paying for my badges/accoutrements.

 

[armyvern]

Roger, I get that...I think what SSM is looking for is the reference that says "Officers in the Regular Force shall purchase Mess Kit IAW their DEU ..." or that states what you posted, and I've never been able to find that, only what I posted above.

Taking into consideration your reply to the 'mandatory/required' vice 'optional' items of clothing for wear...if a Mess Kit is not 'optional' for Commissioned Members, how come it is not provided to the mbr?  If Mess Kits are not optional for some mbrs, then that should be provided to those mbr?

Because the RegF Officer Corps themselves have deemed it mandatory for wear by their members 6 months after commissioning date; not the CF.

Note how it is not applicable to the Officer Corps of the ResF for example.

 

[armyvern]

Okay, but need is broad.  The crown will pay if you need it for a purpose.  What's that purpose?  Because I have tons of kit I don't need to carry my duties in my day to day work and the Supply won't take it back...  You have to be more specific

FYI:  I'm just playing the devil's advocate.  I'm just trying to get to understand the system better.   I do have a mess kit (which was okay for me to pay) and I don't mind paying for my badges/accoutrements.

Play devil's advocate with someone else.

You don't "NEED" badges to "HAVE" pride or accomplish your tasks, responsibilities and duties to Crown and Country.

And, regarding that kit that you have been issued ... you may well one day get off your high-horse and require it in the performance of your duties. You may not need it in your current day to day job, but the fact that you have it means that it may one day BE required for your job. We don't all get to ride the desk etc forever you know ...

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Because the RegF Officer Corps themselves have deemed it mandatory for wear by their members 6 months after commissioning date; not the CF.

Note how it is not applicable to the Officer Corps of the ResF for example.

But I am not saying what part of the CF deems it a requirement.   If a 'part' of the CF is saying you have to have one and its written in Canadian Forces Dress Instructions (which is the case for Mess Kit for our Commissioned folks), then that is a requirement of the CF, no?  So if a unit RSM tells a bunch of Privates that have to have XYZ, they really don't have an option do they?  In the spirit of the meaning as I am presenting it, those soldiers are paying for something 'required of them by the CF'.  So for the sake of this discussion, when I say "CF" I mean any component of the CF, whether is be the CF, one of the Environments, a Corps/Branch, a unit, etc.  "Anything other than personal preference".

A good example I think of was our cap badges; we could get issued the anadized one, or we would purchase a brass one out of pocket.  I had no issue with paying for my brass, its the things I didn't have the option for, but were told I "had to have" that always made me frown alittle.  Personally, I always have and always will buy what I think is the standard I would like for my own uniform.  I bought a cloth band beret well over a decade ago, my brass cap badge, Regimental "this and thats" for my DEU, clickers for my parade boots, AF CADPAT name tapes when I OTd,etc.  But that has (mostly) always been by choice.

I just know there are troops out there who aren't, in reality, given an honest option to NOT have things (ie they will suffer the consequences of not having it) and have to pay for it, and I'd be curious to see how much $$ collectively that is worth across the CF per annum.

It has to be one way or the other; required or optional, period.  If its optional, it should be out of pocket, and the mbr's who do not purchase the items should not be held to task for it (which they will be).  

 

[medaid]

Note how it is not applicable to the Officer Corps of the ResF for example.

Not mandatory for PRes Members at all. Except it's frowned upon if you're a Snr Lt or a Capt without a Mess Dress.

But that's all they do. They frown.