CDS Responds to Opponents of Recruiting in Schools

[The Bread Guy]

Just spotted this on the CDS's web page (PDF also attached) - good stuff!

Letter to the Editor: Canadian Forces Recruiting in Quebec Schools - I completely agree with the members of the Coalition Against Military Recruiting in Academic Institutions (link to site in French) when they state that students must be well informed before making a career choice. That is why our CF members have a duty to participate in job fairs at schools when they are invited to do so by the appropriate authorities.

I believe that the relationship between Canadian educational institutions and CF recruiters must meet the expectations of all Canadians. It is unfortunate to hear that the Coalition is spreading certain misconceptions about CF recruiting efforts. Allow me to correct the facts:

    * Only candidates over the age of 18 may serve on a foreign mission; those under 18 must obtain written permission from their parents before joining the CF;
    * Only certain programs offer to pay for tuition fees; this is one reason why we are offering information to students thinking about a career in the CF;
    * The CF strongly encourages students to complete their education, since the higher their education, the more career choices they will have available to them; and
    * CF recruiters must inform candidates about the specific nature of the military profession, in particular about the principle of universality of service, the unlimited responsibility of its members, as well as the opportunities to serve abroad as required by the Canadian government. On the other hand, a job in the CF does not necessarily mean service overseas or in a combat zone.

Finally, it is absolutely false to believe that the CF is seeking to attract less privileged students. CF recruiters are unable to determine the socio-economic status of the potential candidates they meet. In fact, our staff has a duty to inform anyone who inquires about the CF, regardless of their social status, race, sex, religion, etc.

The decision to choose a military career is taken very seriously by our recruiters and all CF personnel, and only interested Canadians should inquire about the more than 100 possible careers.

Defending Canada begins overseas, and I am extremely proud of all our men and women in uniform who serve our nation with distinction around the globe, whether protecting the Afghan people and ensuring their land is secure for possible development and reconstruction, or helping populations in distress when catastrophes hit here in Canada, such as during the ice storm or in times of flooding.

General W.J. Natynczyk
Chief of the Defence Staff

 

[PMedMoe]

Great letter, somehow I doubt it will sway the mindless minds of those who join the Campagne d'opposition au rectutement militaire.  :

 

[Edward Campbell]

I'm glad he said, "it is absolutely false to believe that the CF is seeking to attract less privileged students". It is important to call these "opponents" what they are: dishonest.

 

[Dean22]

Eh, I don't know just because I know the difference between the military recruitment (how visible it is) in the US and in Canada.

In Canada you don't even know anything about the Canadian military unless your school has cadets (even then it still is limited). All information is found by you and the first time I saw a Canadian Forces recruiter was at a university job fair.

In the United States you look around the class room and honest to god (I laughed) you see Semper Fi stickers everywhere or "Do your part! Fight in Iraq!". Recruiters practically pick up the flunks the second they walk out of the school.


So, it does ask us what kind of system do we want especially since we aren't as gun-hoe and violent as our allies to the south.

More information would be interesting to high school kids but on a whole I disagree because at that age 90% of people who seriously take into consideration the military is because of all those damn video games they play that make it out to be such an awesome thing.

As people get older their reality meter kicks in and then they are more mature to think about joining for the right reasons instead of the wrong ones.


You know I am right

How many people have come on these forums asking to be snipers or sniper officers or sniper demolition JTF2 officers?

 

[PMedMoe]

You know I am right

I know no such thing.

There are people who are very mature at the age of 17-18 and those who are still immature at older ages.  I still believe it is an individual choice to join and people should be provided the correct information required to make (or not make) the choice.

 

[Michael OLeary]

There are people who are very mature at the age of 17-18 and those who are still immature at older ages.  I still believe it is an individual choice to join and people should be provided the correct information required to make (or not make) the choice.

I agree, and those who would disparage military careers should also be held to account to provide fact based arguments.

How many people have come on these forums asking to be snipers or sniper officers or sniper demolition JTF2 officers?

And how many others think their years of playing GTA have established their ability to be game designers.  The failure to investigate one's career options before asking questions that might appear dumb is not limited to potential military applicants.

 

[Dean22]

That's why we have recruiting centers I would imagine.

For people to get correct information.


It takes that extra little bit of maturity and confidence to go to the recruiting center for information vs. a recruiter being at your high school next to Moe's Waxing Willies Car Wash and Cutting the grass Services at age 16-17.


Parents already flip out for political views at school, Darwinism and kids being forced to do PT.

Imagine how much they would flip out if there kids came home saying they want to join the military because of the high school recruitment.


For people pro to recruitment in schools why not take it a step further? Let's have recruitment in churches, amateur sports, and some guy's funeral.


You know that saying about how politics and religions should never mix?

I believe the same for early recruitment and high schools. I believe cadets already do the job of recruitment because people who do actually feel some reality of the military ("wow this sucks I stand and march all day but part of me likes it") will join anyways.

If anything improve the cadet programs for schools.


Even if recruitment was allowed at high schools why on earth would the Canadian Forces ever do it? We are full of recruits at the moment anyways and are above recruitment needs (and budget).

Infantry for example is full until next April.

If the Canadian Forces recruits for anything but high school graduates for the regular force isn't it against their education? Are they not quitting high school for the military? What kind of message does that send when the military would rather you join up than finish your education?

If it's for the reserves I doubt the current funding will meet the needs of the recruit influx received from high school recruitment.


Either way it's a very complicated issue especially when we can't support a larger military without more funding especially in the Reserves.


@Michael O'Leary

Go check out the US forums and search sniper you'll see exactly what I mean. People in Basic Training asking when they can be a sniper. Didn't they jump the gun a lot? Assuming young Canadians won't jump the gun as well is a bit of an understatement. Unlike other people I took years to make my decision and I am glad I did because I knew the truth fully.

 

[mellian]

More information would be interesting to high school kids but on a whole I disagree because at that age 90% of people who seriously take into consideration the military is because of all those damn video games they play that make it out to be such an awesome thing.

How many people have come on these forums asking to be snipers or sniper officers or sniper demolition JTF2 officers?

Reminds me of the WKUK sketch... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvph0r09nDU&feature=related

 

[Michael OLeary]

@Michael O'Leary

Go check out the US forums and search sniper you'll see exactly what I mean. People in Basic Training asking when they can be a sniper. Didn't they jump the gun a lot? Assuming young Canadians won't jump the gun as well is a bit of an understatement. Unlike other people I took years to make my decision and I am glad I did because I knew the truth fully.

And exactly how many people do you know that the CF hired as soon as they walked into a Recruiting Centre and said "I want to be a sniper."?  Just because they ask a question like that, on a forum or elsewhere, doesn't mean they don't get real information in return explaining how many steps there are between "high school student" and "sniper." 

Perhaps we should only let McDonalds and other McJob employers recruit in schools, because students already have experience with happy meals.  We wouldn't want to burden them with real information on actual careers.

Then again, we could be there to provide information to ensure those taking years to choose a career path have some information to work with.

 

[Dean22]

And exactly how many people do you know that the CF hired as soon as they walked into a Recruiting Centre and said "I want to be a sniper."?  Just because they ask a question like that, on a forum or elsewhere, doesn't mean they don't get real information in return explaining how many steps there are between "high school student" and "sniper." 

Perhaps we should only let McDonalds and other McJob employers recruit in schools, because students already have experience with happy meals.  We wouldn't want to burden them with real information on actual careers.

Then again, we could be there to provide information to ensure those taking years to choose a career path have some information to work with.

Honestly, Mike I would be fine with it as long as kids finished their high school education.

If military recruitment got to a point where it was pulling kids out of school for Regular Force before they finished high school then who would agree with it?

Why can't the kids learn that it's not OK to not finish high school? "It's ok that I didn't finish high school the military only needs grade 10".

The reserves I can agree with they have co-op programs but personally I would like to see our recruitment standards raised to high school graduates (for regulars). After all, the reserves is a great place to learn more about the career and whether or not the career is right for them especially at that age.


If you can't finish mandatory schooling that your forced to go to (pretty much) or you can't pass 50's on something as easy as high school then why are they being let into the military to learn even harder things than high school and hold responsibilities that can cost lives.

I know it's a bit of a stretch and I do cut off some amazing soldiers that are non-high school graduates. But I am just talking about averages, sorry if I offended any non-high school graduates.

 

[George Wallace]

Dean 22

Other than creating a Charter challenge, I don't see your point.  You don't seem to think that the CF should be in schools informing students of oportunities in the CF, but you are OK with all other businesses being there to actively recruit. 

The CF does have education requirements.  These other businesses do not.  If you look at the CF in the manner that you have so far presented, how do you justify ignoring all other businesses?  Your views seem a little out of whack to me.

 

[The Bread Guy]

If the Canadian Forces recruits for anything but high school graduates for the regular force isn't it against their education? Are they not quitting high school for the military? What kind of message does that send when the military would rather you join up than finish your education?

And you have some evidence of a CF recruiter saying, "ya know, it would be better for you to join now and skip Grade 12"?  I'm guessing the OPPOSITE would be happening, given the need for qualified candidates.

 

[PMedMoe]

There are very few jobs available in the military to someone with only a Grade 10 education.  From the Forces website Job Explorer:

Comms Research
RMS Clerk
Supply Tech

That's it.

Don't even start comparing cadets and the CF - apples and oranges.

Personally, I could care less if the CF recruited in high schools, although, not for the reasons you're giving  :, however, I feel they should be allowed to participate in Job Fairs at universities, colleges, etc.

 

[Dean22]

There are very few jobs available in the military to someone with only a Grade 10 education.  From the Forces website Job Explorer:

Comms Research
RMS Clerk
Supply Tech

That's it.

Don't even start comparing cadets and the CF - apples and oranges.

Personally, I could care less if the CF recruited in high schools, although, not for the reasons you're giving  :, however, I feel they should be allowed to participate in Job Fairs at universities, colleges, etc.

You are incorrect according to the Canadian Forces recruitment site. Jobs available to people with a grade 10 "education" (not eduction).

                                Aerospace Control Operator
    Aerospace Telecommunication & Information Systems Technician
      Airborne Electronic Sensor Operator
      Aircraft Structures Technician
    Armoured Soldier
    Artillery Soldier - Field
      Artillery Soldier-Air Defence
      Aviation Systems Technician
      Avionics Systems Technician
      Boatswain
      Combat Engineer
  Communicator Research Operator
    Construction Technician
    Electrical Distribution Technician
  Electrical Generating Systems Technician
    Electronic-Optronic Technician - Land
      Fire Fighter
      Geomatics Technician
      Hull Technician
      Imagery Technician
      Infantry Soldier
    Land Communications and Information Systems Technician
      Line Technician
      Marine Electrician
    Marine Engineering Mechanic
      Materials Technician
      Meteorological Technician
    Mobile Support Equipment Operator
      Naval Combat Information Operator
    Naval Communicator
      Naval Electronic Sensor Operator
      Naval Electronics Technician (Communications)
    Naval Electronics Technician (Radar)
    Naval Electronics Technician (Sonar)
    Naval Weapons Technician
    Plumbing and Heating Technician
      Postal Clerk
    Refrigeration and Mechanical Systems Technician
  Resource Management Support Clerk
      Search and Rescue Technician
      Signal Operator
    Sonar Operator
      Steward
  Supply Technician
    Traffic Technician
      Vehicle Technician
    Water, Fuels and Environmental Technician
      Weapons Technician - Land

Also, I don't get what your talking about how they should be allowed to participate at universities and colleges since they already do participate there and in normal job fairs. They just don't participate in a high school fair where the Canadian Forces would be sitting next to the Friday Book Reading Club.


EDIT: Next time be sure to not check "Army, Navy, Air Force" otherwise it will only give you jobs that apply to all three elements (the ones you listed).

So basically with a grade 10 education you can be in 50 out of the 90 jobs in the Canadian Forces. With 30 officer jobs taking up 30 of the 90 jobs available in the CF. Seven more jobs are taken up by people who require a college education. That means with a Grade 10 education it would be 50 out of 53 NCM jobs that you can get into.

The three jobs requiring you to get a high school diploma?

Cook
Intelligence
Medical Technician

 

[AC 011]

Dean22

I think you need to check how your browser functions with the search tool on the CF Recruiting site.  The only reg force jobs available with only a Grade 10 education are those quoted by PMedMoe.

The groups opposing recruitment in schools are not limited in their focus to only high schools.  Their opposition extends to post-secondary (colleges and universities) as well.  That's why PMedMoe mentioned it.

 

[leroi]

quoting Dean:

Also, I don't get what your talking about how they should be allowed to participate at universities and colleges since they already do participate there and in normal job fairs

Sorry Dean, many universities do not let Canadian Forces recruit on campus.  It's the student unions that usually make this ill-conceived decision.

And it continues to be challenged.

It's a sad reflection of Canadian culture when Marxist-Leninist and Communist Party of Canada organizations have more clout to set up shop on (some) Canadian campuses than proud members of the Canadian military have to make an occasional visit to our Recruitment Fairs.

It's an issue that has been put before our politicians.

I wish they would answer.

 

[kratz]

In the high schools I attended, recruiters were present alongside other employers and nobody objected to their presence. Adding to that, recruiting pamphlets and materials were in the school's counselor's office. So for those thinking about the CF in those days, there was the ability to find out more about the military.

Relying on the cadet program to spread information about the military is encouraging a misconception. Cadets are a civilian youth organization with many partners including DND.

 

[PMedMoe]

Also, I don't get what your talking about how they should be allowed to participate at universities and colleges since they already do participate there and in normal job fairs. They just don't participate in a high school fair where the Canadian Forces would be sitting next to the Friday Book Reading Club.

Did you click on the link in the original post?  This group is against the CF recruiting at teaching establishments:  http://www.antirecrutement.info/?q=en/node/50

 

[Otis]

Just to clear up another misconception ... the CF does NOT recruit in High Schools, Colleges OR Universities.

We provide information sessions about opportunities available. I KNOW that sounds like a line from some official propaganda, but it's true.

We do not take application packages to these places. We do not take anyone's information. We give out information only and insist that interested people come IN to the Recruiting Centre if they actually want to process an application. We actually encourage people to finish High School prior to applying!

Now, Dean22 IS correct about one thing ... all of those jobs ARE available to someone with only a grade 10 education ... what he has failed to mention however is quite a few of them require more than just a BASIC grade 10 ... all of them require 15 Ont HS credits (or provincial equivilant) but most of them require advanced math or sciences to be included within those 15 credits. From my experience, most people who take advanced level courses don't drop out after grade 10.

That's my  :2c:

Otis

 

[Dean22]

Dean22

I think you need to check how your browser functions with the search tool on the CF Recruiting site.  The only reg force jobs available with only a Grade 10 education are those quoted by PMedMoe.

The groups opposing recruitment in schools are not limited in their focus to only high schools.  Their opposition extends to post-secondary (colleges and universities) as well.  That's why PMedMoe mentioned it.

Your incorrect about the Grade 10 education jobs however, I did not know about the group opposed to universities and colleges especially since many enjoy the military option and information opposed to 10 years of loans for education.