Changes, needed fixes in Cadets (merged)

[alan_li_13]

Ok, theoretically, they give you C7s. Whats next? You'll ask for grenades. If they give that to u, then you'll want to be issued tac vests an cadpat to hold your stuff. If they gave you that, you will start asking to play with vehicles. If they keep on giving, you will keep on asking. Pretty soon, the cadets will have a bigger arsenal then the rest of the country.

Do you see the point yet?

 

[Springroll]

Are the FN's(7.62) not in use anymore?

 

[Kaziklu]

Follow link:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21796.0.html

I agree with the thread but as the C-7 was used when I was an Army Cadet in 1995-7 I'm willing to bet that the UN ban isn't the only reason... It might be the reason for the removal of PO404 and the Patrolling course but many units weren't using the C-7 even when it was "ok" In fact the UN Ban on the deployment of Child Soldiers would have no effect on the cadet movement by it's ratification. (all you have to do is look at the Cadet Movement in the UK to realize that) Cadets are not Soldiers, they are not being trained or would they ever be used to fight in anywar before without being in the military and being 18.

It's a misconception that the UN CRC optional protocol prevents cadets from doing field craft and the such.. It was removed because some pencil pusher some where took it too far (which so often happens in this country at times )

But like I said the C-7 wasn't really being used at LHQ by the Mid-90s hence me not mentioning the changes to the CRC, Though it's just a rifle I don't understand why people are so upset about not being able to shoot it at a paper target.

That's not even close to realistic.  A C7 would be a "step up" from the Lee Enfield and Daisy Air Rifle.  Is it required?  No.  But it's something to look forward to: "hey, once I can get through my Cadet Leader course, I can do CLI, and get to see what the C7 is like before I get into the Reserves."

The C7 actually has a realistic position in the Cadet Movement (it's what our Affiliated Units use, and it's something to work for), whereas you'll never need to have a cadet using grenades..

You are not in the military your affiliated unit is. the C-7 is a military weapon. To fire it requires an outdoor range ideally, extra insurance and trained RSOs, It is also an automatic weapon. Canada is not a nations that is going to allow it's children to play (because that is what it is) with automatic military weapons.
To use it for drill purposes is not really needed as the Slope arms movement is the main difference between Lee Enfield and FN or C-7 Drill.

Not every Army Cadet corps is affiliated with a infantry unit either. Should the Mech units get to play with C-8s or perhaps a TOW rocket? Mortars perhaps?

They are not toys. They are weapons designed to kill, they are also very dangerous. They are used at Camp by senior cadets that have shown they have the maturity and have earned the right, while on a Canadian Forces Based to be given familiarization with the C-7 under the supervision of a trained RSO on a DND Range.

Do you realize that many army cadets do not have a DND range near them? do you realize that many cadet corps have no affiliated unit (though not too many) do you realize that not every Corps as the proper facilities to store them.

So lets look at the reason to use them
the Forces use them
it would be cool.

and the reasons not to use them
Lack a storage Facilities
increase Insurance needs
increased transportation cost to Ranges
Lack of trained RSOs
Cadets are not part of the military
Increased Danger to Cadets

 

[ryanmann356]

Thats why there are protocols to ensure safety.  If the cadets use the C7 it is with a large bore RSO, on a huge range with a five round clip.  I dint think were giving some cadets credit.  My corps once did a large bore shoot with a reserve unit about a year ago and only selected the mature gold stars to go.  They're not going to give the immature cadets that aren't trustworthy the chance to go on a shoot.  Giving a 12 year old kid a fully loaded C7 rifle would be stupid.  But I do think that if you show maturity and are a reliable SENIOR cadet, then you get rewarded with doing something you normally wouldn't do IE a large bore shoot.

 

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

I would agree to a system that allowed "senior" cadets to go out with their affiliated unit once a year for a famil shoot but what purpose would you need your own weapons vault for units that compromise mostly of children? Maybee renting the movie TAPS this week might put things back into perspective.

 

[Dane]

I would agree to a system that allowed "senior" cadets to go out with their affiliated unit once a year for a famil shoot but what purpose would you need your own weapons vault for units that compromise mostly of children? Maybee renting the movie TAPS this week might put things back into perspective.

I hope that was a joke. Thats like seeing Hilary Duff's Cadet movie and likening it to the Canadian Cadet Movement.

 

[p_imbeault]

Hilary Duff has a cadet movie? *shakes head* what is the world comming too... 

 

[Michael OLeary]

Thats why there are protocols to ensure safety.  If the cadets use the C7 it is with a large bore RSO, on a huge range with a five round clip.  I dint think were giving some cadets credit.  My corps once did a large bore shoot with a reserve unit about a year ago and only selected the mature gold stars to go.  They're not going to give the immature cadets that aren't trustworthy the chance to go on a shoot.  Giving a 12 year old kid a fully loaded C7 rifle would be stupid.  But I do think that if you show maturity and are a reliable SENIOR cadet, then you get rewarded with doing something you normally wouldn't do IE a large bore shoot.

Which is what your Army Cadet Leader Instructor Rifle Coach Course does, isn't it?

Since this thread has simply evolved into another aimless discussion of Cadets and shooting, it's being locked.

Complaints about Moderators locking your pet thread may be submitted to the site owner, Mike Bobbitt.

Applications to reopen in order to to post for review your fully staffed draft of a formal proposal to change Cadet shooting regulations may be submitted to the Cadet Forum Moderator.

 

[RCD_Cadet]

Perhapse a little lesson in the 10 Principles of Leadership would be in order for ALL corps NCOs and CIC officers?

What about conducting leadership refresher classes to all the staff prior to kicking off the training year?

Regards

i agree with what has been said but not just befor the trg year but through out the year is what is in order in my mind

 

[Franko]

i agree with what has been said but not just befor the trg year but through out the year is what is in order in my mind

Hmmm...perhaps bringing that up during our end of training night O Groups may be in order?

Next time we have one, bring it up.     

I'm sure that there are plenty of pers in the corps that are thinking the same as you are, just a bit on the shy side.

We can only implement what you suggest....if you want more professional development in this regard, we'll do it!

Regards

 

[Bergeron 971]

Geez there is alot to read. I stopped reading at page 2.
Here is what I think.
The army cadets is indeed lacking the ARMY experience.
BUT.. Why does everyone always think ARMY = Combat skills? Last I saw, the army has, Logistics, Communications, Medial, Administration, Mechanics, Infantry, Armoured, Intelligence, Religion, Gun Tech, Finance, .... Hell i could go to the CF recruit website and post all the trades here.
I left the CCM for about 6 years after aging out before returning as a CI. And I was greatly disappointed in seeing Fieldcraft and communications, CLI-QM gone. They where the last ARMY things. Army cadets have become more like scouts. My theory on this is that the higher ups thing they will attract more youths to the program. I think that in fact by moving away from the military aspect, they will end up in the dismantle of Army cadets. What happens when you cut the roots of a tree? The tree dies. In this I mean. Tradition, history. As a Jcdt and a SNCO and now as an adult, I felt the Lee Enfield was a great way to connect to the veterans of the CF, The history. the drill for tradition. Swords? most cdts that would be holding swords would be SNCOs anyway am I not right? I have MWO and CWOs that get appointments not knowing how to carry a pace stick, not to mention how to use it. In the day I was told there where Scuba summer course, Driving courses where cadets would achieve civi driving permits upon completeion. just to name a few.
I have been told that MANY cdts not earning the PASS on summer courses to be passed anyway. And summer training camps turning into summer day care camps. My cdts this year said that the course cadets where free for all and the staff where ordered to do nothing as it was not a military camp, it was a summer camp.

I know lots of cdts and former cdts have stories of exchanges.... Drink fests, tourest sessions... Sneaking off camp to go to the local pubs. Where is the military in that, the discipline, the tradition ..... and so on?

I agree that the army cadets have lacked on the aspire interest in the CF.
ARMY in army cadets does not have to be generally COMBAT skills. We have many different types of youth joining the cadet movement. not all want to be Airborne commandos. But some do. We should give them more choice in summer training courses. some want it more military, some may be musicans, or the admin type. But there should be something for everyone.

As for SNCOs rushing into CIC or even CI hood. I am a strong believer of Life experience. Those young adults aging out of the CCM and rushing into CIC or CI hood is not generally good in my opinion. Some could handle it however they lack real life experience. I have grown up alot in my 6 years out of the CCM. Some would only act as SCdts. and not teach and advise. We're there to teach and show them the ropes, not to keep the ropes and pull on them our selves.

As for CIC. this is a difficult subject because I believe that once you are a CIC "YOU ARE A MEMBER OF THE CF" and should follow the standards. What I would think, is begin a CI association, where CIC prospect would have to be a member of, kind of like NCOs. Admins and QMs are not run by Reg or Res NCOs? They should not be pushed into a direct leadership posts. unless some have life experiences such as military or cadet training. They should be given time to learn the CF and the CCM, a weekend crash course is not enough.

Humm. Well I donno what else to say. I'm tired due to medication for an infection.

Cheers everyone

 

[ryanmann356]

I would put more rifle work in the cadet movement.  Put the army back into army cadets.  Improve the CIC training courses to be more closely related to actual military training.  Then again you always need to take into account costs, personnel etc.  But shooting a daisy air rifle piece of junk doesnt count as marksmanship in my books.

 

[Franko]

But shooting a daisy air rifle piece of junk doesnt count as marksmanship in my books.

No, it doesn't in mine either.

However, to play devils advocate, it is cheaper and easier than booking a range, arranging for range staff and getting ammo and targets alloted to the corps wouldn't you agree?

Using the pellet rifle is a great way to teach the basic principals of marksmanship prior to getting the cadets out and waste bullets and manpower because they can't hit the broad side of a barn.

Regards

 

[ryanmann356]

true i agree with you, however that was sort of based on a corps with a large budget lol

 

[rwgill]

However, to play devils advocate, it is cheaper and easier than booking a range, arranging for range staff and getting ammo and targets alloted to the corps wouldn't you agree?

Using the pellet rifle is a great way to teach the basic principals of marksmanship prior to getting the cadets out and waste bullets and manpower because they can't hit the broad side of a barn.

You hit the nail on the head.  These are two of the reasons the switch to air rifles was made. 

A range can be made in a Legion Hall, school gym, back yard.  Air Rifles can be easily stored at the LHQ.  Many younger cadets (12-13) also complained about the weight of the Lee-Enfield.  They also complained about the kick to the 303 and the C1.

 

[ryanmann356]

I think the cadet system is doing 'ok' right now. I came out of it better for having done it.

I completely agree with you
this thread was called "what must be fixed in cadets in your opinion"  That was my opinion However i think that larger bore shoots should be done with seniors only.  Even if they had the money and the equiptment and the location etc, 12-14 year old kids should not fire the large rifles.  I simply wouldn't trust them.  Start them off with the small .22s or yes the daisy

 

[RCD_Cadet]

something i find oh so annoying is when a cadet same rank thinks he is all that
in my opinion we should work as a team instead of fighting because that is what cadets is about learning to work as a team

suggestions/comments/ideas

 

[Michael OLeary]

something i find oh so annoying is when a cadet same rank thinks he is all that
in my opinion we should work as a team instead of fighting because that is what cadets is about learning to work as a team

suggestions/comments/ideas

Just a suggestion: Punctuation, capitalization and grammar do count.  Practicing them here is free, having to do it when you're in a job that requires it truly sucks.

By the way, spelling counts too:

Pain Is Weakeness Leaveing your Body (So Suck It Up)

Good prose is evidence of a glimmer of intelligence leaving your mind. (So suck it up.)

 

[disgruntledguppy]

Wow, you guys all make some pretty general statements about what needs to be fixed :

Everything, all CIC officers, all the leaders, all the followers there is not enough army in army cadets

Maybe what needs to happen is that all partners in the cadet system need to talk to each other rationally and honestly.

How many cadets have left the system NEVER having told any one how to make it better?

How many officers NEVER listen to cadets when they do try to make suggestions?

How many cadets make statements like "everything is wrong and this system sucks" without offering ways to fix things?

I must be really lucky, my corps has issues sure BUT my officers listen to cadets and their suggestions for change.

We do night navs on exercises, have tons of range weekends, and do all kinds of army stuff both on our training nights and on our exercises.

Only one of my officers has any real military training (he was a reserve guy for a couple of years) but the other officers have been in the CIC for years now and have trained, looked for help from soldiers in the regs and reserves and I bet you would not be able to tell which officer is which if you spent time with them.

I know there are issues with the system but sweeping statements and removing ALLCIC officers who have no military background doesn't seem like an answer to me.

 

[rwgill]

Alright, Ive been doing a lot of talking, answering questions and the like. So I‘m asking the big question"What has to be fixed in the cadet movement?" I want to hear your thoughts on what you‘d like to see in cadets. What needs to change, what should be left alone etc...

If YOU had the power....what would you do?

Regards

Franko

 

Well I have virtually read the entire thread.  I have attempted to absorb most of it and reflect.  I took those points and attempted to verify and/or dismiss them.  Here is what I would change:

1.  Communication:  Orders are passed on without using basic Task Procedure.  The 5 w's are not always answered which allows subordinate commanders to input there own flavour.  This contributes to a huge difference in how the cadet units operate and train across the country.  

Case in point:  The CATOs mention nothing about banning "war-games" or tactics.  To the contrary, only one CATO remotely addresses this (11-33) and makes reference to:  weapons legislation, not training cadets to a specific standard, and the RCO must ensure it is safe.  The RCO issues the order which basically says no (CRCO 1803).

Case in point:  Cam and Concealment is no longer taught to cadets, nor is it permitted.  Cam and Concealment is an event at Central Region's Army Cadet Challenge.  How can I compete at something that I cannot do?

Suggestion:  The CATOs should be rules and not guides (as sometimes applied).  The Regional Orders should be looked at, used to augment the CATOs, then scrapped.  RCOs should only be permitted to write orders if there are conflicts between the CATOs and provincial legislation.  Regions should also be re-drawn IAW provincial boundaries.  (presently Ottawa area Air Cadets fall under Eastern Region while Army and Sea are Central).

2.  Public Affairs:  Presently, rather then stating and defending the policies and aims of the CCM, we have been covering up what we do, while using politically correct terms.

Case in Point:  Army Cadet Challenge is the exact same competition as Skill-At-Arms, yet Army Cadet Challenge seems friendly.  The intent was to civilize the Army Cadets, the impact was the demilitarization of Army Cadets.

Case in Point:  Colour Parties (if only in name) are no longer permitted as colours were used in battles.  Cadets now carry flags, meant to symbolize tradition, yet distance itself from battle.  Though theoretically, this is correct, just uttering the word colour gets some people bent out of shape.

Case in Point:  The CLI Patrolling Course and CLI Adventure Course are virtually identical.  The name changed to CLI Adventure to make it friendlier.  The badge has not changed either.  Though it is no longer a bayonet and axe, it is now a camping knife and hatchet.

Case in Point:  Shooting Competitions in some Regions no longer exist, they are now Marksmanship Competitions.  Cadets no longer are taught how to shoot, they are taught the art of marksmanship.  Shooting, an Olympic sporting event, called shooting, and cadets cannot do it?!?  While biathlon, also originally a military sport, is flaunted as a cadet success?!?

Suggestion:  Cut the BS.....................................The intent was to make cadets friendly, but a simple thing like an activities name, makes the difference to cadets (the client of the CCM).

3.  The Aims:  Currently we have:  stimulate interest in the CF, promote citizenship, promote physical fitness.  The aims are very vague!

Case in Point:  Cadets must only participate in the Physical Fitness Test.  Attempting a push up is good enough.

Case in Point:  There is only one period of instruction to Green Stars which promotes physical fitness.  There are 18 for drill.

Case in Point:  Cadets on many activities are not permitted to wear operational clothing (combats, NCDs), while opting for cadet PT gear.  How do you wish to stimulate interest while wearing a grey t-shirt?

Case in Point:  The rules regarding cadets is so limiting, that the CCM does very little to stimulate a true interest.  Cadets is extremely far from the truth (WRT the CF).  We do have the pomp and ceremony, which we must continually doctor according to Regional Orders.

Case in Point:  Leadership and Methods of Instruction are the heart of the CCM.  In about five years, a kid goes from follower/student to leader/teacher.  The program is supervised by CIC staff, but the entire program rests in the hands of the young adults.  Neither leadership or MofI are aims.

Suggestion:  

Changes the aims to:  promote physical fitness, promote good leadership, promote good citizenship, prepare youth for a career in the Canadian Forces.  (more in line with the UK and Australia)

I would also dispence with the current safari uniforms designed in the 70's.  I would switch to a more operational uniform, which would differ between the elements.  

Sea Cadets would parade in more of a NCD type uniform.  The Navy's sailing uniform is NCD, so why should Sea Cadets not use the same type of uniform?  Sailing is the Sea Cadet Programs most important part of training.  

Air Cadets would parade in flight suits.  Air Cadet aspire to fly, so this would only be appropriate.

Army Cadets would wear a more versatile uniform, like the UK's Army Cadet Force.  A General Purpose (parade & field) uniform, like combats.  I rarely see a Reg F or P Res member in anything but combats now.

Finally, I would redesign the level courses to push cadets more towards experiencing, to a point, what life in the CF is like.  While troops deployed do not always have the luxury of showers, or even a hot meal, cadets are sitting around a camp fire singing songs and roasting marshmellows................

Note:  For those who wish to ask, these are my personal opinions, and I have directed them up my chain of command.  Some of the points I have mentioned are being addressed at the National level, as well as some of the points others here have mentioned.  Not because of me, but because of forums like army.ca and people like you.  These are people who care about cadets.  I first joined the world of cadets in 1987, as a cadet.  I have been a CIC officer and today, as a civilian, continue to help out.