Changes, needed fixes in Cadets (merged)

[sgt_mandal]

I think its a melange of a few of those options....insurance liabilities and parents I'd say have the most influence. but there are other factors, like the trying to be politically correctness of not calling manhunt "manhunt" or not being able to go to laser quest as a sqn activity...i don't even think its about political correctness, but i couldn't think of what else to call the act of not being able to play those games. It goes a little overboard with that.

 

[Kaziklu]

If British Cadet and American Cadets are capable of using Military weapons and the such.. I don't see why Canadian Cadets can't.. But it's not my call. I think PR issues with what people think can and can't be understood by a population that has no respect and/or understanding of the Canadian Forces, heightened by a increasing willingness to sue the Leagues and or DND for a perceive slight against their son or daughter, through activities that may if done improperly or through acts of nature may result in injury and thus causing an increase insurance..

so one could say it is a combination of everything as our society changes and evolves into a more peace loving society.

 

[ryanmann356]

If the parents are worried about the military aspect of Army Cadets then why enroll they're kids in the program!? Keep little Johnny Bloggins in scouts if they are worried.  The problem is there are some parents who complain and give bad PR about cadets turning their kids into little GI Joes without having alot of information on the subject.  I had a mother of a new recruit complain about me because i was calling drill too loudly one night  :  But there are also alot of parents out there who really support the CCM and volunteer their time at the corps and thats great!  I love seeing parents that are so proud they're teary eyed as their child marches up to receive his promotion to Private. 
Perhaps if they left the C7 rifle drill and rifle shooting to kids 16+ it would be alot better.  My corps did a shoot with C7s for gold stars only about a year ago (I was a silver star and wasnt allowed to attend) :-[  It could be used as a motivation for kids to stay in the program even, and if the parents have a problem with it then they dont have to let their kid go.

 

[p_imbeault]

Armyboi
Cadets is fine the way it is. If Cadets want to use the C-7 (you and ouyin suggest something about the age of 15 to use it?) then they can wait until they turn 16 and join the PRes. The Lee Enfields are fine for Ceremonies and other Parades, most Corps already have enough of them, why spend more money on a Mock C-7 for practise and C-7 for parades when we have enough of the Lee Enfields? A rifle is a rifle after all (for drill anyway).

The ARMY is still in ARMY Cadets. Honestly, If your not satisfied with the amount military oriented training then leave.

 

[GGHG_Cadet]

It should be a real rifle when it public for a parade (Remembrance Day for example), but a rubber rifle is fine for practice purposes.

I'm sorry but I don't really see any point in a cadet corps parading with rifles, I mean how many corps actually do that now? The only parade you may be able to do that is for the ACR. It just doesn't make sense to parade with rifles anyways where would you get them all from? You should not be parading with weapons on Rememberance day (unless Cenotaph Guard) because it is a church parade.

 

[p_imbeault]

I'm sorry but I don't really see any point in a cadet corps parading with rifles, I mean how many corps actually do that now? The only parade you may be able to do that is for the ACR. It just doesn't make sense to parade with rifles anyways where would you get them all from? You should not be parading with weapons on Rememberance day (unless Cenotaph Guard) because it is a church parade.

I feel the same way, most Cadet corps I know rarely parade with rifles, (And when they do its always the Lee Enfields) only for Cenotaph, or the Flag Party for Annual Review...

 

[Dane]

I'm sorry but I don't really see any point in a cadet corps parading with rifles, I mean how many corps actually do that now? The only parade you may be able to do that is for the ACR. It just doesn't make sense to parade with rifles anyways where would you get them all from? You should not be parading with weapons on Rememberance day (unless Cenotaph Guard) because it is a church parade.

You're sort of correct in your sentiment, but now every Corps in BC is getting drill purpose rifles. I think it's a good idea. For all those of you that say, what's the purpose of parading with rifles, I respond that it is historically signifigant to our movement. You can't have anattitude like then and then go on to criticize the movement for changes it's made.

Also, for anyone that said parent's I'd disagree. Parent's have almost no say in the program. Who do they talk too? The unit CO, who probably doesnt pass the comments on. Not many parents get involved anyways. The changes are at the League level and DND. Some is reaction to percieved opinions that don't have backing, and some is simply modernization.

 

[alan_li_13]

Its a great organisation, stop lamenting the 'good old days' or 'the UK/US does it better so why can't we'. Get out there and take advantage of all it has to offer.

Exactly.

As for Armyboi, first of all, I appreciate it but there is no need for the formality of "sir" in here, we're on an equal footing.

The average Joe off the street will not bother checking what organization a cadet on the street is, and will most likely complain to his local MP about the government allowing the neighborhood kid totting a C7.
Also, I personally would differentiate a C7 and a Lee-Enfield with the fact that the C7s only purpose currently is for killing abet in defense or offense, and this is recognized from movies, TV, and etc. The Lee-Enfield, being a bolt-action rifle, not to mention almost an antique, is more similar to a hunting rifle that can be purchased commercially by hunters. Even then, I do not think rifle drill should be done outside of DND controlled areas such as on city streets. I believe it should be kept to the confines of the local armouries or CSTCs.

Also, parading with C7s regularly could pose a problem to the unit in terms of security and also finance. C7s are probably relatively expensive to acquire, store, and maintain, not to mention qualifications for officers.

Finally, I always here many complaints of the lack of militarisms in cadets. This is absolutely not true. Let me assure you all (oh boy, I hope I don't get in trouble for this) that in my 3- years of army cadets, I have done so much that half the squadron here have never even HEARD of. Orienteering, winter Indoc exercises, Sunset parades, quarter guards, vigils, building rope bridges, not to mention para   :'( of course. All very military oriented stuff. Just sit back, work hard, and take a detached view and enjoy your time in cadets. Cadets is play, it is meant for fun, the military is work, its for a living.

 

[p_imbeault]

As for those who would like to say that there's no reason for a cadet to have a C7, then look back upon Reserves parading with a C7 for Remembrance Day (for example).

I think the reason reservists parade with the C-7 is they are actually trained on it. So again please tell me what is wrong with the Lee Enfields that are usually standard across Canada for cadets?

That's not a fair comparison.  We have already established that not everyone wants to join the military when they're done cadets, and while I do personally question why they'd be in cadets then, it's not my place to ask.  If they'd like to get a taste of what the army is like, then they should be able to do that without having to sign away all rights for three years, in a chance that they'd totally hate it and regret going into it.

Cadets is not the Military, Cadets give youth a taste of what military life is like, but it is not the military. BTW you don't have to sign up for three years if you join the Reserves (I think you can leave anytime you want, I may be wrong though as the nearest Reserve Unit is 3 1/2 hours away I never looked into it that much)

No one here is doubting, or saying that we're ungrateful for what the current program offers.  Medals, qualifications, training, trips, and free (or a small cost) for events to attend is an excellent agenda to use.  However, that doesn't mean that it's perfect, or that it couldn't be changed to model another country's cadet program.

If we modeled it after another countries cadet program would it really be Royal Canadian Army Cadets? 
I do see where you are comming from though, the CCM could use some minor changes.
Regards,

 

[Pronto123]

Just to change the subject from weapons for a sec.
I know that this is probably not possible anymore, but I think that it would be possible to raise more interest in the CF and the Cadet program by simply having PRes and the Regs donate thier old OD combats to the Cadet Corps. This would mean that this way more cadets would have combat uniforms (no more Neon Yellow & Purple clothing being spoted trying to learn Bushcraft/Fieldcraft).
Yes I know that some of the sizes arn't going to be great but hey, I'm sure you can always take it to an Army Surplus store and ask to trade for a different size. Think about it this way, no more civie clothing in the bush, cadets would actualy have 2 uniforms for all situations (3 if counting Regimental Blues).
Wouldn't it be nice to actualy have all cadets parade and do thier training in the same uniforms?

There are plenty of things that we may think could make cadets "better", but you have to realize that most of those things arn't going to happen because of other reasons. So you have to make the best out of what you have.
Ask anyone who has been with cadets for a few years, has seen some of the changes and they would tell you that the biggest change that ppl tend not to notice are the CADETS! A few years ago you couldn't tell apart a C/Sgt from a PRes/Reg Sgt, some of these guys were huge and looked like they were in thier late 30s, now, no offence but some of the C/Sgts look like they are 7.

 

[ryanmann356]

I agree, I dont think that cadets using C7s for rifle drill is not a good idea, at least with the .22s Joe Civi can see the fact that there is a big chunk (bolt and mag) of the rifle is missing and thus must be inert.  The C7 (even a rubber one) doesnt look as dangerouse as a .22 with the bolt and mag removed.  If I were a civillian and saw a young kid parading with a C7 I would be slightly worried.  The C7 is for fighting, not for parading, and in any case whats wrong with the .22?  They're great for monkey drill and do the job of a drill rifle well.  The only downside to using a .22 is that it can make your parade gloves dirty.  Leave C7 drill to the regs/reserves.

 

[Springroll]

I do not know what the new program is like(I will know in less than a year) but the old program was awesome!!

Practice drill was done with the Lee Enfield's and drill comp's and parades were done with FN's.
Field Ex's were basically a weekend of army games while learning new things, like cam and concealment, map and compass etc.
Parade nights(wednesdays) were mixed between lessons and time on the square.
PT nights were just that, nothing but PT every friday night.

By what my sister told me(she was a CI with a cadet corps in Victoria), the new program was implemented because of parental concerns over safety and concern for their children.

This is ARMY cadets after all, it should be run as close to the army way of life as possible, but geared towards adolescents.

 

[Clément Barbeau Vermet]

Why? So we can confuse the public even more to the point that they think little cadet private Tommy marching down Yonge street on Santa Claus Parade will get sent to war?

I think the Lee-Enfields are quite enough. We should be thankful that it hasn't been taken away yet.
Don't get me wrong, I love rifle drill, but placing real military weapons, tools for KILLING, in hands of children would generate some pretty bad PR.

CF have about 80 000 C7 and the Army (reg and res) is not even 40 000 strong, so I do not think we need to buy some new ones. Cadets could learn to drill with a C7 in their 3rd or 4th ear of instruction. When our Army used Lee Enfeilds, Cadets did not use muskets, as far as I know. I think it is just great if civilians see some 14/15 years old cadets with a C7 because it would help change this wrong popular idea that Canadians have about our armed forces. It would also help to keep a lot of bored cadets in the movement. When I was 10 years old I played some games more violent than the ''WARgames'' I used to play in cadets when I was 14 years old. Now more and more units do not let their cadets play these ''wargames'' because sometimes a little cadets gets a bobo and his/her mother gets angry. It has just gone WAY to far.

 

[qor556]

First off, I have absolutely no problem with cadets. IMHO, what better program to encourage young, eager individuals to join the military while having them do something productive/keep them out of trouble. Even having them gain the basic military knowledge on top of it all (drill, NAV, basic leadership etc.). Having cadets solely use the Enfield's (C7 on controlled ranges) have them wanting more. If you want to use the C7 join the army, simple as that.

 

[armygurl_557]

The Cadet movement as a whole is an amazing program, because other programs like it cost thousands and thousands of dollars to do half the thinsg we do.

I have a problem with individuals in Cadets, mostly parents though. They think of it as a boot camp close to home, and they put their kids in it as a punishment.
I've had cadets come and slack off and cause problems and when they are asked why theyre like " yeah i got arrested last week so my mom put me in this... " or "i failed math so now i'm here".. Like we have had problems where the police have had to be called because things have gotten that out of hand..

 

[Burrows]

Like we have had problems where the police have had to be called because things have gotten that out of hand..

Gotta love the po....lice.

 

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

We cannot and shouldnot compare Canadian cadets to other countries. The attitude of Canadian civillians is far too ignorant towards any sort of "military" organization simply because they dont know better. Look at the thread about the "missile launchers" stopped in Toronto or the reservist seen doing his BFT with a weapon.

The problem is a lack of information being put out there. I will be helping out a local cadet unit with training starting this week and im sure there will be a few parents asking what a reg force army type is planning on teaching their kids. My first goal will be to have a sit down with the parents and explaining what cadets is and how it will help form their children into productive members of society.

No, I dont believe cadets should have C7's because knowing how to shoot a modern weapon is not one of the aims of cadets. Getting some basic discipline, learning new things and making good friends is what kids need and what they want. If after they quit cadets they want to be a doctor/lawyer or soldier, they will have had a step up from the average "mall rat" and there are very few ex-cadets out there that dont have good memories from their time spent.

 

[Pte. Bloggins]

CF have about 80 000 C7 and the Army (reg and res) is not even 40 000 strong, so I do not think we need to buy some new ones.

Interesting tidbit of info. Did you know that 73.6% of statistics are made up on the spot?

It would also help to keep a lot of bored cadets in the movement.

Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly what we should do. "Hey, kid, you bored? There you go, play with this. No, don't point that there."

:

Seriously though, what SHELLDRAKE said.

 

[Kaziklu]

you can always check. Canada Bought 80,000 C-7s in 1986. Most Numbers you will find will indicate those C-7s are still in Canada in A1 and A2 configurations, with an additional 2,500 C-8s

Just do a quick web search would produce several items that would back up the number. Particularly an independent military site hosted and partially funded by Simon Fraser University
http://www.sfu.ca/casr/index.htm

Now there are 56,000 Cadet (give or take) I believe 20,000 of those are Army Cadets.. there are about 5,000-10,000 Infantry Trained Soldiers Both reserve and Reg force iirc so transferring a limited number of C-7 Rifles to Corps with the resources to properly store them and have a Reserve or RegF detachment near by (say 35km) as well as Large Bore Qualified RSO on staff.

However I'm sure the fact that not many Corps meet all those requirements, and the risk that comes with the Storage of Automatic Weapons in a Civilian location most likely is the reason why C-7 drill is no longer done at LHQ. Above most others.

 

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

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