- Reaction score
- 5,963
- Points
- 1,260
GAP said:
This (nearly 18 months old) is from People's Daily and is reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act:
http://english.people.com.cn/200412/27/eng20041227_168796.html
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
How about China being on our side?
I don't Korea is a good example of that, I think the Americans' butts still hurt from the first bit of their involvement in that war.
If they would just bloody help us out, it could seriously help calm down and cool relations with them.
**Edit** Woops, for once I did not read the post before mine, terribly sorry.
I don't Korea is a good example of that, I think the Americans' butts still hurt from the first bit of their involvement in that war.
If they would just bloody help us out, it could seriously help calm down and cool relations with them.
**Edit** Woops, for once I did not read the post before mine, terribly sorry.
- Reaction score
- 146
- Points
- 710
Piper: You might like to look at this guest-post at "Daimnation!"
"The Grizzly road to Darfur" (Nov. 18)
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/005238.html
Mark
Ottawa
"The Grizzly road to Darfur" (Nov. 18)
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/005238.html
Mark
Ottawa
- Reaction score
- 21,698
- Points
- 1,260
I cant see anything good coming out of a force in Darfur.
As Edward mentioned above their are two options 1) a force that does nothing 2) a force that changes the gov't and destroys the janjaweed.
If #2 is chosen it will (IMHO) further alienate the African and Muslim/Moslem world.
I hate to say it - as I am a large interventionalist - but I do NOT think this is a well spent use of Canadian power.
IMHO (and a more cold blooded approach) would be to equip the Rebels (Christians) and send in SF teams from the West to train their forces (FID). Keep the force capabiltiy levels similar between both factions - and then partitian the nation.
As Edward mentioned above their are two options 1) a force that does nothing 2) a force that changes the gov't and destroys the janjaweed.
If #2 is chosen it will (IMHO) further alienate the African and Muslim/Moslem world.
I hate to say it - as I am a large interventionalist - but I do NOT think this is a well spent use of Canadian power.
IMHO (and a more cold blooded approach) would be to equip the Rebels (Christians) and send in SF teams from the West to train their forces (FID). Keep the force capabiltiy levels similar between both factions - and then partitian the nation.
- Reaction score
- 8,210
- Points
- 1,160
Khartoum is 680 km from salt water.
Darfur is 1480 km from salt water and you have to go past Khartoum to get there.
US Navy is not going to be able to supply a lot of support.
Countries neighbouring southern Sudan are: Eritrea, Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, Democratic Republic of The Congo, Central African Republic and Chad.
Chad is the nearest mounting base but it is land locked and 1500 to 2000 km from salt water. It would be necessary to fly over Libya, Nigeria or Sudan to get there.
The Chad border is 2-300 km from the Darfur camps as I understand it and the nearest mounting base in Chad is a town of 95,000 known as Abeche.
EnCarta has this to say about Abeche.
Given that Eritrea, Ethiopia, Uganda, the Congo, and the Central African Republic are all rather "fragile" right now the only other mounting base would be Kenya. The Kenyan border is 1500 km from Darfur and 1100 km from the port at Mombasa with limited or no direct road access.
By comparison Qandahar is waterfront property.
Darfur is 1480 km from salt water and you have to go past Khartoum to get there.
US Navy is not going to be able to supply a lot of support.
Countries neighbouring southern Sudan are: Eritrea, Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, Democratic Republic of The Congo, Central African Republic and Chad.
Chad is the nearest mounting base but it is land locked and 1500 to 2000 km from salt water. It would be necessary to fly over Libya, Nigeria or Sudan to get there.
The Chad border is 2-300 km from the Darfur camps as I understand it and the nearest mounting base in Chad is a town of 95,000 known as Abeche.
EnCarta has this to say about Abeche.
Given that Eritrea, Ethiopia, Uganda, the Congo, and the Central African Republic are all rather "fragile" right now the only other mounting base would be Kenya. The Kenyan border is 1500 km from Darfur and 1100 km from the port at Mombasa with limited or no direct road access.
By comparison Qandahar is waterfront property.
Why does anything good have to come out of stopping the janjaweed in the Darfur area other than allowing people to live?
At some point the UN has to grow something resembling a spine. All I have seen in the last year has been related to how Sudan has continually blocked UN aid to the darfur region, in one form or another, meanwhile the janjaweed continue the genocide. Just stopping the genocide would be a good first step, and if they have to step on some Sudanese toes in the process, so be it.
There are already UN African peacemakers/keepers assigned to Sudan, but it seems they don't want to upset the regional politics by forcing their way in, therefore they need someone with no Vested Interest other than humanitarian to lead.
Maybe it doesn't need to be Canada specifically, but a composite of western/European forces heading it up, preferably with some "Muslim" nations picking up the slack. If the majority of wealthy Muslim nations want to be recognized for something other than their natural resources, then they too have to start having some major input into helping out the nations with an Islamic population.
At some point the UN has to grow something resembling a spine. All I have seen in the last year has been related to how Sudan has continually blocked UN aid to the darfur region, in one form or another, meanwhile the janjaweed continue the genocide. Just stopping the genocide would be a good first step, and if they have to step on some Sudanese toes in the process, so be it.
There are already UN African peacemakers/keepers assigned to Sudan, but it seems they don't want to upset the regional politics by forcing their way in, therefore they need someone with no Vested Interest other than humanitarian to lead.
Maybe it doesn't need to be Canada specifically, but a composite of western/European forces heading it up, preferably with some "Muslim" nations picking up the slack. If the majority of wealthy Muslim nations want to be recognized for something other than their natural resources, then they too have to start having some major input into helping out the nations with an Islamic population.
- Reaction score
- 8,210
- Points
- 1,160
I agree with you entirely on the need for something good GAP. It should be enough to stop the killing.
But if the locals don't respect borders and can't bring themselves to challenge their own rebels that cheerfully ignore said borders, if they can't bring themselves to act against a humanitarian crisis, what makes you think that they will accept any outsiders coming in.
I venture that any member of the OECD, the wealthy western nations, would be viewed with suspicion as having vested interests, even Canada. Remember we have had our own oil companies in the area and the Muslim community generally seems reluctant to let outsiders intervene.
Where do you find
Without the buy-in from at least one of the neighbours, somebody willing to upset any and all of the rest of the neighbours by joining with an outsider, how could you mount and sustain a long-duration operation? Just think of the troubles the Americans are having in Iraq or the Brits have in Northern Ireland. It doesn't take many bodies to create confusion and the area necessary to patrol is immensely greater.
But if the locals don't respect borders and can't bring themselves to challenge their own rebels that cheerfully ignore said borders, if they can't bring themselves to act against a humanitarian crisis, what makes you think that they will accept any outsiders coming in.
I venture that any member of the OECD, the wealthy western nations, would be viewed with suspicion as having vested interests, even Canada. Remember we have had our own oil companies in the area and the Muslim community generally seems reluctant to let outsiders intervene.
Where do you find
?
Without the buy-in from at least one of the neighbours, somebody willing to upset any and all of the rest of the neighbours by joining with an outsider, how could you mount and sustain a long-duration operation? Just think of the troubles the Americans are having in Iraq or the Brits have in Northern Ireland. It doesn't take many bodies to create confusion and the area necessary to patrol is immensely greater.
- Reaction score
- 146
- Points
- 710
Some background on the difficulties facing intervention:
"Darfur: Preston Manning provides a corrective to John Ibbitson's do-gooding hubris" (April 7)
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/006211.html
Mark
Ottawa
"Darfur: Preston Manning provides a corrective to John Ibbitson's do-gooding hubris" (April 7)
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/006211.html
Mark
Ottawa
Would I be totally out of line to sugest that the UN should hire on a PMC *cough*Blackwater*cough* to go in, and protect civilian interests/kill ak wielding janjaweed? Train the local christians who are getting slaughtered, donate some milsurp from south of the boarder then go from there.
It has been said already in this thread, putting a wrench in the early stages on a country wide genocide by killing off the janjaweed would go along ways to fixing the problem without throwing idiotic ammounts of money at it.
It has been said already in this thread, putting a wrench in the early stages on a country wide genocide by killing off the janjaweed would go along ways to fixing the problem without throwing idiotic ammounts of money at it.
- Reaction score
- 35
- Points
- 530
Just out of curiousity, but how is this different than bombing the hell of Belgrade to get the Serbians to stop murdering Bosnians in places where we couldn't put boots on the ground? Are the Darfurians somehow worth less than the Bosnian Albanians? Or is the Arab Government in Khartoum not as responsible for this genocide as the Serbians in Belgrade?
Or is this another example of us having different sets of rules for dealing with muslims "because they might get upset with us"?
Matthew. ???
Or is this another example of us having different sets of rules for dealing with muslims "because they might get upset with us"?
Matthew. ???
- Reaction score
- 8,210
- Points
- 1,160
You could be right Matthew, but I hope you're wrong.
I think one of the differences militarily is that the bombing campaign in Yugoslavia could be followed up by a ground force. In addition the aircraft could launch from the Adriatic and Aviano in Italy requiring a flight of only 400-600 km each way, some portion of which was secure territory. That is about the distance into Khartoum from the Red Sea but the people we want to protect are another 900 km beyond that. What do we do if the guys in Khartoum run TOWARDS the refugees and away from the sea?
I think one of the differences militarily is that the bombing campaign in Yugoslavia could be followed up by a ground force. In addition the aircraft could launch from the Adriatic and Aviano in Italy requiring a flight of only 400-600 km each way, some portion of which was secure territory. That is about the distance into Khartoum from the Red Sea but the people we want to protect are another 900 km beyond that. What do we do if the guys in Khartoum run TOWARDS the refugees and away from the sea?
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
I think it's because the ghosts of Somalia and Rwanda have not yet gone away enough for a Cdn Govt to contemplate a real "boots on the ground" A**-kicking mission yet. Those ghosts have louder voices than the ghosts of the janjaweed's victims.
Second, we are (helloo-o!) heavliy committed to trying to do a good job in Afgh: all the advice the military has offered Cdn govts in the last few years is to stop spreading us around so thinly.
Finally, I think there is some uneasiness about the possibility that mostly white Canadian soldiers might be seen killing mostly black opponents, even if the opponents are actually partially or mostly Arabic. Too much like the "bad old days of colonialism". Much better that Africans slaughter each other.
Cheers
Second, we are (helloo-o!) heavliy committed to trying to do a good job in Afgh: all the advice the military has offered Cdn govts in the last few years is to stop spreading us around so thinly.
Finally, I think there is some uneasiness about the possibility that mostly white Canadian soldiers might be seen killing mostly black opponents, even if the opponents are actually partially or mostly Arabic. Too much like the "bad old days of colonialism". Much better that Africans slaughter each other.
Cheers
- Reaction score
- 146
- Points
- 710
This guest-post at "Daimnation!" might be of interest:
"Darfur update: Somebody please tell Jack Layton about this"
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/006239.html
Mark
Ottawa
"Darfur update: Somebody please tell Jack Layton about this"
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/006239.html
Mark
Ottawa
- Reaction score
- 1,009
- Points
- 1,010
I dunno about you guys, but when I see this sort of EVIL happening and no one in the world seems to give a damn enough to do something about it, I get mad.
Forget the politics for a second. Are the people of Darfur's lives worth less than any other lives in this world?
What is our humanity really worth then?
Forget the politics for a second. Are the people of Darfur's lives worth less than any other lives in this world?
What is our humanity really worth then?
- Reaction score
- 8,210
- Points
- 1,160
HF:
Wanting to do something and being able to do something are not the same thing.
I think most folks here WANT to do something but it seems to be an open question as to what can be done....and, as importantly, what can be done effectively.
Wanting to do something and being able to do something are not the same thing.
I think most folks here WANT to do something but it seems to be an open question as to what can be done....and, as importantly, what can be done effectively.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Dallaire commenting on Darfur............"Danger Will Robin danger danger".....( for those of you too young to remember that its hard to explain) remember the last time that guy had anything to do with troops and africa. We dont need his comments on any military subject except how to.....na forget that, no subject.
Brad Sallows
Army.ca Legend
- Reaction score
- 8,689
- Points
- 1,040
I don't know about the rest of you, but after the sustained whining from several directions, I'm looking forward to:
1) A parliamentary debate on our aims in Darfur, and
2) A vote at the end of said debate
prior to any commitment. I want to know what conditions will be deemed "success; bring the troops home" and more importantly, I want to know how much time and many lives lost the Opposition parties will accept before they start muttering about bringing the troops home. And the House had better damn well be full for as long as the debate takes.
1) A parliamentary debate on our aims in Darfur, and
2) A vote at the end of said debate
prior to any commitment. I want to know what conditions will be deemed "success; bring the troops home" and more importantly, I want to know how much time and many lives lost the Opposition parties will accept before they start muttering about bringing the troops home. And the House had better damn well be full for as long as the debate takes.
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