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Cutting the CF/DND HQ bloat - Excess CF Sr Leadership, Public Servants and Contractors

CountDC said:
Well I was a clerk working at a HQ in the 90's and it certainly wasn't like that there so I guess it was only certain ones that were so lucky. 

Many of those HQs that now have the Capts doing the jobs is because they underwent a massive cut to positions in the 90's and lost most of the support staff.  The HQ I was at went from slightly over 250 staff down to I think it was 97 staff. Many of the senior officers, NCM and civilian positions were cut as it was felt the junior officers could do the dirty work while still bringing some clout as an officer when dealing with the lower HQs.

I don't agree with the thought but I do understand what they were attempting.  I would have went with Capts overseeing a larger sect with a Sgt and a few junior ranks doing the work. For Example G1 - Capt, G1-2 Sgt and then all the parts of G1 - MCpls/Cpls.

I see now that most have increased again but it appears to be at the top end instead of the bottom.

Walking around DCLI while Attached to ANOC is an interesting experience for a MCpl. I was about as elusive as a unicorn within the cell, let alone the building. I late foind out that DCLI employs 1 Jnr NCM in it's entirety and the rest are Junior Officers, Cs 2s or Higher, and a smattering of Snr NCOs to fill Wisemen positions.
 
Good luck to new VCDS:

Veteran sailor steers reform of Canada’s military
After a career guiding warships, Vice-Admiral Mark Norman’s new posting has him searching out efficiencies in Canada’s military.


A new top commander admits that Canada’s military is not as efficient as it can be and is pledging to push ahead with efforts to make it more cost-effective.

Vice-Admiral Mark Norman took over the job as vice-chief of defence staff this month promising to “aggressively pursue efficiencies.”

And in an exclusive interview with the Star, Norman said his goal is to expand what’s been branded as “defence renewal,” the process of reforming the management of Canada’s military.

The defence department has been criticized for having too many consultants, too many civilians and too many military personnel clustered in Ottawa rather than serving at front line units.

That’s all left the impression that the department is top heavy, criticisms that Norman acknowledges. “No one likes to hear those characterizations . . . but the reality is we’re not as efficient as we could be,” he said.

“As good as the status quo may be, it can always be better,” he said.

Norman, 53, is the veteran sailor who now talks like a corporate executive. No wonder. He’s gone from guiding warships to pondering organizational charts, management processes and the bottom line.

...as Canada’s military looks to renew itself, Norman is the man who will help guide that transformation.

He takes over at a time when the military is trying to find efficiencies, search out savings in administration that can be redirected to front line efforts. Former prime minister Stephen Harper had complained about a “serious imbalance” in the defence department and urged cuts to overhead while preserving operational readiness.

The Conservatives launched a process in 2013 to find saving worth $1.2 billion a year by 2018. Norman said he wants to step up those efforts.

“It’s starting to deliver some results but . . . we’re going to focus on broadening the scope of the renewal and efficiency effort,” said Norman, who was commander of the Royal Canadian Navy before taking on this job.

That includes looking at everything from paperwork to bureaucratic processes to “new ways of doing business,” he said, “how we get things done. (Military) bases do different things, depending where they are in the country, and how we can rationalize some of that,” he said [emphasis added].

“Are we getting everything we possibly can out of every dollar and out of every person that we have in here,” Norman said.

For example, he said the pending consolidation of defence department offices in Ottawa to a single site — a former Nortel office campus — is an opportunity to implement changes to defence administration...
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/08/13/veteran-sailor-steers-reform-of-canadas-military.html

Mark
Ottawa
 
I hope he is successful.

As a start, I would recommend greater empowering of Commanding Officers to reduce the busy work of intermediate HQs engaging in the internal business of subordinate units.
 
An American perspective on the growth in General Officers (from 2012).

https://fabiusmaximus.com/2012/09/10/american-military-force-changed-43153/

Note that their "bloated" number is 7 GOFOs per 10,000.  With our current Regular Force strength target of 68,000, that would mean we'd be as badly bloated as the US if we had 7x 6.8 Reg F GOFOs, or 48.  We're about double that (or over 14 per 10,000) now.


 
MCG said:
I hope he is successful.

As a start, I would recommend greater empowering of Commanding Officers to reduce the busy work of intermediate HQs engaging in the internal business of subordinate units.

Dilution of responsibility is by far, imo, the biggest factor contributing to our inneficiencies.  Sometimes, relatively small decisions (for someone commanding 200+ personnel with an operating budget North of $1M) are kept at the highest levels for no other reason than keeping control, or at least it seems like it (when all your requests come back approved without questions, there may be a way to delegate some of that down the chain)...

My 3 lines of rant for the day!
 
Another article which is a couple of years old,but the subject which seems to be timeless. :)

http://www.defenseone.com/business/2014/02/heres-why-cutting-20-percent-hagels-staff-bad-idea/78707/

Secretary of Defense Hagel has implemented an across-the-board 20 percent budget cut at all military staff headquarters commands. But the Defense Department’s one-size-fits-all budget cut appears to draw on erroneous assumptions to resourcing that have plagued the military for several years.

The idea came in response to the sequestration cuts of the Budget Control Act of 2011 and acting on the recommendation of the Strategic Choices and Management Review. But it seems uninformed by current resource problems existing across the staff headquarters, and will lead to negative unintended consequences for DOD’s fiscally responsible “innovative, low-cost, and small-footprint” approaches to national security.
 
I am beginning to think the problem isn't the "fat" at the top. I never met anyone who worked at an HQ who had stories about how under utilized everyone was.  Most HQs seem to to be as busy as they ever were. The problem is that we have cut the meat out so much that the proportion of Fat to meat is out of wack.

I really don't think down ranking is a good idea either. If we needed a chief or a LCol in that position before, we probably still need similar experience. At least in theory, these guys and gals should be a level above the MWO or Maj. Down ranking the job because we are small and have lower quality people doing the jobs.
 
One issue with the Military is the making of work to justify their position until that position is needed. That does not mean the people of today have done that. But in the past it has been done and done well.

When you break down a how a company works when times are good, compared to how it works when times are lean. It is no different then how the Military works. The difference is how much excess a company trims in its office first. The usual process is to trim its field staff first, when that does not get the results they need, they then start in the field offices and then finally head office.

Then only to quickly end up hiring field staff back quickly because they are the ones who do the actual job of bringing money into the business. With everyone else in a support role. Companies can learn to run extremely slim at the top, and still be very successful. When they cut the field staff they learn real quick that it is hard to supply three crews to man equipment that only has 1/2 a crew on staff.

The Military could incorporate simple practices an slim down all HQs across the country. But the requirement and the order has to be there before they will. Of course they will make small changes, shuffle people around. But they need to cut man power. They need to learn how civilian company can run so lean while they cannot.

Going back to the BC forest fires, one Forest Supervisor had said, " we need all your bosses in the field running a shovel or a pick, what do you guys have one support guy for everyone in the field". He was correct, what they needed was boots on the front line, not boots on the bivouc.
 
Tcm621 said:
I am beginning to think the problem isn't the "fat" at the top. I never met anyone who worked at an HQ who had stories about how under utilized everyone was.  Most HQs seem to to be as busy as they ever were. The problem is that we have cut the meat out so much that the proportion of Fat to meat is out of wack.

It's a form of Parkinson's Law.  Work expands to fill the time available.  Prior to any "cut", a critical eye needs to be turned to tasks.  Are the tasks assigned actually essential, or have some/many become busy work because someone was around to do them?  I have met people in HQs who are under utilized.  There are cases in Ottawa where people are in late and out early for a variety of reasons - quite frankly the people that grind the real work out don't even notice they are gone.

I really don't think down ranking is a good idea either. If we needed a chief or a LCol in that position before, we probably still need similar experience. At least in theory, these guys and gals should be a level above the MWO or Maj. Down ranking the job because we are small and have lower quality people doing the jobs.

Many positions were inflated from the start.  A major likely did the job ten to twenty years ago, and did it just fine.  You underestimate the capability of a Major or MWO.
 
Infanteer said:
It's a form of Parkinson's Law.  Work expands to fill the time available.  Prior to any "cut", a critical eye needs to be turned to tasks.  Are the tasks assigned actually essential, or have some/many become busy work because someone was around to do them?  I have met people in HQs who are under utilized.  There are cases in Ottawa where people are in late and out early for a variety of reasons - quite frankly the people that grind the real work out don't even notice they are gone.

Many positions were inflated from the start.  A major likely did the job ten to twenty years ago, and did it just fine.  You underestimate the capability of a Major or MWO.

I have done jobs as a Capt in the 1990s that I also did as a Cpl in 1980s.  So yeah, I agree with you.  At CFB Gagetown, most of the Major jobs in the HQ now were Capt or WO jobs in the 80s, there being only one or two majors per staff branch.  While they got rid of the General for the public consumption, they have nearly tripled the number of field grade officers on that base; there are double the number of LCols and almost triple the number of Majors on the same staff real estate seemingly make less happen with less student training and having to answer ever more RFIs from ever more higher HQs. The whole staff system is really just a another civil service with free work clothes and gym membership.
 
Infanteer said:
It's a form of Parkinson's Law.  Work expands to fill the time available.  Prior to any "cut", a critical eye needs to be turned to tasks.  Are the tasks assigned actually essential, or have some/many become busy work because someone was around to do them?  I have met people in HQs who are under utilized.  There are cases in Ottawa where people are in late and out early for a variety of reasons - quite frankly the people that grind the real work out don't even notice they are gone.

Many positions were inflated from the start.  A major likely did the job ten to twenty years ago, and did it just fine.  You underestimate the capability of a Major or MWO.


I was told, by a source that I believe was both well informed and honest, that, back in the 1960s, when the New CFHQ, later NDHQ was being designed, the question arose as to the rank to be assigned to a "director." It had already been decided that the general, civil service, levels of assistant deputy minister, director general, director, section head, manager, etc would be used in the new CFHQ, also, to promote easier cross pollination and when they cast about for military "directors" in Ottawa they found vey, very few ~ military officers were, generally, GSO1s or ACOSs or whatever.

But they did spot a few: Director of Artillery, Director of Infantry, Director of Signals and so on ... all the "professional heads" of their respective corps with responsibility for personnel, training, operations, equipment requirements and support ... the sorts of multi-functional jobs that a director general would do in the civil service.

Now, in the civil service a director was, and still is, the first "executive" level. (S)he is professionally expert in a specific field but, also, able to manage more than just the technical specifics; (s)he can manage people, budgets and so on related to her/his area of responsibility.

The busy overwhelmed "new CFHQ" design team didn't stop to ask: what's the first level of "executive" in the military? If they had then they would have concluded that it was commander/lieutenant colonel/wing commander or even, for smaller ships and units, lieutenant commander/major/squadron leader. No one could possibly deny that a ship's captain, regimental commander or flying squadron commander is an "executive," and that commander/lieutenant colonel would have been the appropriate rank for most directors (with a few very small, specialist directorates being headed by lieutenant commanders/majors and a very, very few very large or highly 'political' ones needing a captain(N)/colonel). The team just agreed, almost thoughtlessly, I was told, that director = captain(N)/colonel, and that was that.

I assert that almost all captains(N) and colonels in staff jobs in almost all HQs could be and should be down-ranked to commander/lieutenant colonel and almost all directors general should be down-ranked from commodore/brigadier general to captain(N)/colonel. I believe that you would get a better staff system and rank pyramid.
 
I realize this is an old thread, but it seems to be the best place to ask this. (This quation has been on my mind for some time). So on the forces.ca website it says there are roughly 23,000 pers in the army, 8,500 in the navy, and 13,000 in the airforce. That adds up to around 44,500, but the authorized strength of the forces in 68,000. Is there really over 23,000 pers in all the headquarters? 😂 Now thats bloat.
 
Blake C. said:
I realize this is an old thread, but it seems to be the best place to ask this. (This question has been on my mind for some time). So on the forces.ca website it says there are roughly 23,000 pers in the army, 8,500 in the navy, and 13,000 in the airforce. That adds up to around 44,500, but the authorized strength of the forces in 68,000. Is there really over 23,000 pers in all the headquarters? 😂 Now thats bloat.

Edited for spelling, sorry it posted twice I hit reply instead of edit initially.
 
Blake,

The simplified answer:

The Navy, Army and Air Force numbers are trained individuals.  Those still undergoing training are counted against the Chief of Military Personnel (CMP).  CMP also includes the recruiting system, some training institutions and the military medical system.  Those total about 8000 personnel (personnel under training) and around 1500 personnel (the rest of CMP).

There are other organizations with military personnel as well: the Infrastructure and Environment Group; the Information Management group; the Special Forces; and the Materiel Group, among others.  Finally, there's the Canadian Joint Operations Command, which includes both headquarters and a number of units (for example, some signallers and support units).

Clear as mud?
 
dapaterson said:
Blake,

The simplified answer:

The Navy, Army and Air Force numbers are trained individuals.  Those still undergoing training are counted against the Chief of Military Personnel (CMP).  CMP also includes the recruiting system, some training institutions and the military medical system.  Those total about 8000 personnel (personnel under training) and around 1500 personnel (the rest of CMP).

There are other organizations with military personnel as well: the Infrastructure and Environment Group; the Information Management group; the Special Forces; and the Materiel Group, among others.  Finally, there's the Canadian Joint Operations Command, which includes both headquarters and a number of units (for example, some signallers and support units).

Clear as mud?
7000-ish CIC/COATS in the mix as well.
 
quadrapiper said:
7000-ish CIC/COATS in the mix as well.

Not part of the 68K Reg F count.  They're a sub-component of the Reserve Force.
 
Blake C. said:
. . . Is there really over 23,000 pers in all the headquarters? 😂 Now thats bloat.

You seem to be equating ". . . army . . . navy . . . air force" numbers with available operational personnel.  Within those three commands are also multiple levels of headquarters with the same potential for bloat as NDHQ.
 
Blackadder1916 said:
You seem to be equating ". . . army . . . navy . . . air force" numbers with available operational personnel.  Within those three commands are also multiple levels of headquarters with the same potential for bloat as NDHQ.
Which I take is considered a bad thing?
 
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