Dutch and the Stan
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Tomahawk, I respectfully disagree. The real issue behind the issue is that the Netherlands is presently going through an election. Few candidates want to openly support a military operation that is often viewed in Europe as an American problem. NATO seems to have a need to be seen to be helping out in the GWOT and has offered troops to "safer" Afghanistan then to IRAQ.
The Dutch Forces has modernized and reequipped since the conscription days of the 1980s. Their Special Forces Operators are top drawer with much operational experience.
Sadly, their Armed Forces, as is ours, is at the beck and call of their political masters. These master tend to govern by popularity polls rather then doing what is, in fact, the hard and difficult right thing.
The Dutch Forces has modernized and reequipped since the conscription days of the 1980s. Their Special Forces Operators are top drawer with much operational experience.
Sadly, their Armed Forces, as is ours, is at the beck and call of their political masters. These master tend to govern by popularity polls rather then doing what is, in fact, the hard and difficult right thing.
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Hate to burst any bubbles here....the Dutch are already in Afghanistan and some are even in Kandahar.
As to them being wishy washy....they seem to be under the impression that their forces will be there for some time to come as well.
Regards
As to them being wishy washy....they seem to be under the impression that their forces will be there for some time to come as well.
Regards
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I have read that the Dutch are bringing in fighters (F16 I believe), and Appache attach helos.
The news report mentioned that Canada wanted to bring their F18's but identified it was beyond our transport capability to move the logistical tail in country and support it (part of the decision may also have been lack of air-air refueler capability). Of course Canada also has no attach helo assets as well. :-[
The news report mentioned that Canada wanted to bring their F18's but identified it was beyond our transport capability to move the logistical tail in country and support it (part of the decision may also have been lack of air-air refueler capability). Of course Canada also has no attach helo assets as well. :-[
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I worked with the Dutch army in Bosnia in 2000, and they were outstanding. They were leaps and bounds better than I had thought they would be, with a definite "can do" attitude. They were a little bemused by our reaction to the fact that they weren't the stereotypical long haired, ear-ringed, conscript lamers that we had been led to believe they would be (from all the 4 Bde guys who worked with them in the '80's). They took their job VERY seriously, and they realized that they had a lot to make up for the perception of them being ineffectual in Srebenica. They felt (in my estimation) a great deal of shame for not being able to do what they WANTED to do, but weren't allowed/able to do (being poorly armed/equipped). And I sympathize deeply with them on this issue, because I couldn't imagine having been put into the same position. I'm sure they have a lot of troops from that era with some very severe issues. Yet another reason why I am SICK of hearing the lefty political parties always talking about peacekeeping/UN peacekeeping like it is so fooking great. Sure it makes THEM feel good, but how many times do soldiers have to be forced to say "Stop!!! Or I'll say STOP again!!!!". And then BOHICA's all around!!! Give me NATO any day over UN. Same great soldiers, less harsh bitter bile aftertaste in soldiers mouth after UN says "No! We don't want to offend the belligerents! They have feelings too!!!"
I would never fault them (the NL military) for the decisions that their government makes, in the same way I don't fault the US, the UK, the German, etc military for the same. Soldiers are soldiers.
Al
I would never fault them (the NL military) for the decisions that their government makes, in the same way I don't fault the US, the UK, the German, etc military for the same. Soldiers are soldiers.
Al
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In Defence of the Dutch.
I served with the Royal Dutch Marine Commandos as their Battery Commander in Bosnia in 95, they were crack troops as good as anything I had served with.
On Srebreneca - As for their regular line Infantry soldiers they are equal to us in IMHO, very professional and very good at what they do. Unless one was there it is hard to know what occurred at Srebrenica. During the battle I can tell all that from my position they (Dutch) fought very well and infact won the battle with the Serb Coy that was assaulting the enclave. They conducted themselves well in battle and killed the EN and withdrew to a very defensable position to hold the enclave. The CO of the Dutch BN could not get anymore support for his defence then was already issued to his troops, which was enough to defeat the Bosnian Serb assault but questionable to hold off another assult from a Serb proper tank assult that was being massed along the Serb/Bosnian border. The Comdr of the UN ordered the CO to surrender to keep the war from widening. He (CO Dutch Bn) refused to do this initially and opted for a strong Defensive position and to rely on the NATO support that he was getting from assets attached to him. When the Bih Government refused a rescue convoy from getting to the enclave without a fight the UN Comdr again ordered the surrender of the Dutch force. The radio transmission went like this - Comdr UN question " when was the last time you saw the Comdr of the Bih forces in Srebrenica?" Response "2 days ago, they appear to have melted away to Zepa" Comdr UN " If the Bih wont fight for its own people then its not your fight anymore, surrender and lets try and save your force" Dutch Bn Comdr " I have a good position we can hold out for a few days we need the Rapid Reaction Force to assist and a medivac for my wounded" UN Comdr " We will not come to assist its not your fight anymore".... He surrendered, the rest is history. When one hears the events from the context I laid out above it does change ones view on the actions at Srebrenica, I don't condone the failure to disobey the order and fight on, but I do understand why he did not.
I think they will do just fine in A Stan and would fight with them again if asked.
I served with the Royal Dutch Marine Commandos as their Battery Commander in Bosnia in 95, they were crack troops as good as anything I had served with.
On Srebreneca - As for their regular line Infantry soldiers they are equal to us in IMHO, very professional and very good at what they do. Unless one was there it is hard to know what occurred at Srebrenica. During the battle I can tell all that from my position they (Dutch) fought very well and infact won the battle with the Serb Coy that was assaulting the enclave. They conducted themselves well in battle and killed the EN and withdrew to a very defensable position to hold the enclave. The CO of the Dutch BN could not get anymore support for his defence then was already issued to his troops, which was enough to defeat the Bosnian Serb assault but questionable to hold off another assult from a Serb proper tank assult that was being massed along the Serb/Bosnian border. The Comdr of the UN ordered the CO to surrender to keep the war from widening. He (CO Dutch Bn) refused to do this initially and opted for a strong Defensive position and to rely on the NATO support that he was getting from assets attached to him. When the Bih Government refused a rescue convoy from getting to the enclave without a fight the UN Comdr again ordered the surrender of the Dutch force. The radio transmission went like this - Comdr UN question " when was the last time you saw the Comdr of the Bih forces in Srebrenica?" Response "2 days ago, they appear to have melted away to Zepa" Comdr UN " If the Bih wont fight for its own people then its not your fight anymore, surrender and lets try and save your force" Dutch Bn Comdr " I have a good position we can hold out for a few days we need the Rapid Reaction Force to assist and a medivac for my wounded" UN Comdr " We will not come to assist its not your fight anymore".... He surrendered, the rest is history. When one hears the events from the context I laid out above it does change ones view on the actions at Srebrenica, I don't condone the failure to disobey the order and fight on, but I do understand why he did not.
I think they will do just fine in A Stan and would fight with them again if asked.
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geo said:
Are you trying out for a moderator position on this board?? I think this is the second time that I have read you make a comment such as this. The other one was something along the lines of "nuff said". Who the fuck do you think you are? I'm hoping that this is just an expression of yours that you use to end all conversations.
I doubt your opinion (or mine. Or the CDS's for that matter) is the FINAL word on anything. We call this a forum so people can discus matters. It's not Geo's Army.ca. It's Mike Bobbit's Army.ca. And I don't recall him giving you (or anybody) the God gun to shoot down anyone else's opinion.
Sorry, but this is a HUGE pet peeve of mine, and frankly, I am quite sick of the people who think that there is nothing left to be said on a subject. Shouldn't someone shut down the "Question of the Hour" (link: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/3246.0.html(Q: What was nickname of Royal Nfld Regt? A: The Blue Puttee's) thread that is 1000+ posts, that could have been summed up in 2? It annoys me that it is still ongoin (I have my own issues to resolve), but like the Energizer Bunny, it keeps going. And going. And going.
Rant over.
Al
the 48th regulator
Army.ca Fixture
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whoa,
I guess the ammonia level of Kellogg's prosessing plant was kicked up a notch this morning...
dileas
tess
I guess the ammonia level of Kellogg's prosessing plant was kicked up a notch this morning...
dileas
tess
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Sorry, but this is a HUGE pet peeve of mine, and frankly, I am quite sick of the people who think that there is nothing left to be said on a subject. Shouldn't someone shut down the "Question of the Hour" (link: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/3246.0.html(Q: What was nickname of Royal Nfld Regt? A: The Blue Puttee's) thread that is 1000+ posts, that could have been summed up in 2? It annoys me that it is still ongoin (I have my own issues to resolve), but like the Energizer Bunny, it keeps going. And going. And going.
Rant over.
Al
[/quote]
And this has what to do with the topic of the Dutch in Afghanistan? Breath in breath out, open a beer and chill...repeat as often as necessary.
Rant over.
Al
[/quote]
And this has what to do with the topic of the Dutch in Afghanistan? Breath in breath out, open a beer and chill...repeat as often as necessary.
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Al,
Sorry if the way I express myself tends to stick in your craw. Wasn't intended and it wasn't my intention to terminate this thread... I prefer to keep my posts short & to the point - intending to say what I have to say & make room for others to chip in their .02 cents worth. Till now - it wasn't a problem.......
Hope you had a good rant & feel better now.
Chimo!
Sorry if the way I express myself tends to stick in your craw. Wasn't intended and it wasn't my intention to terminate this thread... I prefer to keep my posts short & to the point - intending to say what I have to say & make room for others to chip in their .02 cents worth. Till now - it wasn't a problem.......
Hope you had a good rant & feel better now.
Chimo!
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Greetings;
I am a Canadian who was born in the Netherlands. When I was in Germany, I was the Gunplummer with the 8th Hussars for all of the Guncamps leading up to and including CAT 89 and 91 (Canadian Army Trophy) Although the Dutch Tank crews I met were Conscripts, had long hair and looked a bit sloppy, when it was time to shoot, they were very good, beating out quite a few of the Career troops, most of whom were using The Leo 2's. They beat us in 91, but Belgian crews and us were using LEO 1's. One of our crews came in fourth, beating LEO 2 crews.(3Troop C Sqn) I know that in Srebernica (sp) the Dutch had an issue when they left there in a hurry, leaving refugees behind a lot of whom apparently were killed. I can tell you that some of those folks (Dutch soldiers who were there and have retired) are pretty messed up because of that. (They probably wanted to stay and fight but were ordered out) Anyway, I cannot speak for the rest of the Dutch Army, but the Tankers were good. The Dutch Tank crews were from C Eskadron of 43 Tankbataljon out of Bergen-Hohne. To say that Dutch soldiers are like weak sisters....mmm look at dutch military sites that will explain their missions including Iraq.(Out of there now) But I think their version of the Airborne Regiment was there (definitely not Conscripts)
I think that it is difficult to rate soldiers until you work alongside of them.
Gnplummer421
I am a Canadian who was born in the Netherlands. When I was in Germany, I was the Gunplummer with the 8th Hussars for all of the Guncamps leading up to and including CAT 89 and 91 (Canadian Army Trophy) Although the Dutch Tank crews I met were Conscripts, had long hair and looked a bit sloppy, when it was time to shoot, they were very good, beating out quite a few of the Career troops, most of whom were using The Leo 2's. They beat us in 91, but Belgian crews and us were using LEO 1's. One of our crews came in fourth, beating LEO 2 crews.(3Troop C Sqn) I know that in Srebernica (sp) the Dutch had an issue when they left there in a hurry, leaving refugees behind a lot of whom apparently were killed. I can tell you that some of those folks (Dutch soldiers who were there and have retired) are pretty messed up because of that. (They probably wanted to stay and fight but were ordered out) Anyway, I cannot speak for the rest of the Dutch Army, but the Tankers were good. The Dutch Tank crews were from C Eskadron of 43 Tankbataljon out of Bergen-Hohne. To say that Dutch soldiers are like weak sisters....mmm look at dutch military sites that will explain their missions including Iraq.(Out of there now) But I think their version of the Airborne Regiment was there (definitely not Conscripts)
I think that it is difficult to rate soldiers until you work alongside of them.
Gnplummer421
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Guys
like a lot of topics this went way of track, it was never meant to be a slagging of the Dutch Army only that the Dutch Government where now not sure what they are going to do. (Commit or not)
I am now in KAF working with all of the other contingents, they all appear to be doing a first rate job (Dutch included).
It would be nice to stay on topic for once
like a lot of topics this went way of track, it was never meant to be a slagging of the Dutch Army only that the Dutch Government where now not sure what they are going to do. (Commit or not)
I am now in KAF working with all of the other contingents, they all appear to be doing a first rate job (Dutch included).
It would be nice to stay on topic for once
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