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Dude two things. One, can you at least not put your replies to quotes in the quoted sections, it really makes it difficult to read. And two, how do we know you are the G3 for LFCA?
EX Stalwart Guardian
- Thread starter Sh0rtbUs
- Start date
I can‘t speak for this ex... but in my (fairly limited) experience getting on Griffons, max time on the ground was 2 minutes for a takeoff, and a 45 second get the **** out on the landing. But maybe thats just my experience, and I suppose it depends on the level of training and experience of your troops and the confidence of the flight engineer that you can get the **** in or out of his aircraft without losing your head or attaching yourself to the bird in some way.
J
jrhume
Guest
I don‘t know squat about falcons, either. But, I am curious about these training sessions.
I‘m sure I read in another thread, some time ago, that your Army uses Miles gear, or something like it. Why isn‘t it used during ambush drills, for instance?
As for helo time on the ground -- in Vietnam, an infantry company would be airlifted into an LZ using about a dozen UH-1 slicks. This gaggle would be escorted by no less than four UH-1B/C or AH-1 Cobra gunships. The assault would be preceeded by a short, but intense, artillery prep and possibly by an air strike. Assuming three birds could get into the LZ at one time the assault itself usually required no more than five minutes from the time the first slicks touched down until the last one pulled pitch for departure.
Naturally, physical obstacles or rough terrain often made things more difficult, but the emphasis was on speed.
I witnessed several CAs (from a distance). One, in particular, stands out because it took place less than three miles north of the airfield (Dong Tam International Army Airfield <grins>) where I was the tower chief. The LZ was hot and the ensuing battle went on for about three hours. Yet, not counting the birds downed in the LZ, all the lift ships were in and out within five minutes or less. I wasn‘t keeping track at the time -- I had too many birds inbound with wounded and/or battle damage to worry about timing. But it was fast.
Birds that went in that afternoon to pick up wounded were seldom on the ground for more than a minute.
I have no idea what the current US Army standard for unloading troops in an LZ, although I‘m sure they have one. Loading takes a little longer, to be sure. Based on my experience and a good deal of reading, it makes sense to train the way you intend to fight. Realism in training saves lives on the battlefield -- well, you‘ve heard all the simplistic phrases.
Is the training described in the above posts less than optimal because of budget considerations?
Curious in Colorado,
Jim
I‘m sure I read in another thread, some time ago, that your Army uses Miles gear, or something like it. Why isn‘t it used during ambush drills, for instance?
As for helo time on the ground -- in Vietnam, an infantry company would be airlifted into an LZ using about a dozen UH-1 slicks. This gaggle would be escorted by no less than four UH-1B/C or AH-1 Cobra gunships. The assault would be preceeded by a short, but intense, artillery prep and possibly by an air strike. Assuming three birds could get into the LZ at one time the assault itself usually required no more than five minutes from the time the first slicks touched down until the last one pulled pitch for departure.
Naturally, physical obstacles or rough terrain often made things more difficult, but the emphasis was on speed.
I witnessed several CAs (from a distance). One, in particular, stands out because it took place less than three miles north of the airfield (Dong Tam International Army Airfield <grins>) where I was the tower chief. The LZ was hot and the ensuing battle went on for about three hours. Yet, not counting the birds downed in the LZ, all the lift ships were in and out within five minutes or less. I wasn‘t keeping track at the time -- I had too many birds inbound with wounded and/or battle damage to worry about timing. But it was fast.
Birds that went in that afternoon to pick up wounded were seldom on the ground for more than a minute.
I have no idea what the current US Army standard for unloading troops in an LZ, although I‘m sure they have one. Loading takes a little longer, to be sure. Based on my experience and a good deal of reading, it makes sense to train the way you intend to fight. Realism in training saves lives on the battlefield -- well, you‘ve heard all the simplistic phrases.
Is the training described in the above posts less than optimal because of budget considerations?
Curious in Colorado,
Jim
Hey guys
I‘m supposed to be doing EX Stalwart Guardian this summer, I‘ll be right off doing GD‘s and SQ.
I was pretty excited to go on this EX till I read all these posts. I realize I won‘t be the Arty or Infantry so I won‘t be doing the exact same things as you guys, but you guys are kind of brining me down here, and probably some other new people. Any good points? How about some advice how to get through this 9 days?
I‘m supposed to be doing EX Stalwart Guardian this summer, I‘ll be right off doing GD‘s and SQ.
I was pretty excited to go on this EX till I read all these posts. I realize I won‘t be the Arty or Infantry so I won‘t be doing the exact same things as you guys, but you guys are kind of brining me down here, and probably some other new people. Any good points? How about some advice how to get through this 9 days?
devil39
Sr. Member
- Reaction score
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Jim,
30 secs to offload according to the 101st "Gold" book.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/army/docs/101st-goldbook/CH2.htm
It doesn‘t sound too bad but it can be pretty hard to achieve in a full Chinook, seats out, and loaded for bear. As you are likely well aware, there are many factors that will affect this time. Light rucks, nice LZ it is very achievable.
The training you read about there may be less than optimal mostly because of the airframe and power considerations. Not a great air assault platform.
30 secs to offload according to the 101st "Gold" book.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/army/docs/101st-goldbook/CH2.htm
It doesn‘t sound too bad but it can be pretty hard to achieve in a full Chinook, seats out, and loaded for bear. As you are likely well aware, there are many factors that will affect this time. Light rucks, nice LZ it is very achievable.
The training you read about there may be less than optimal mostly because of the airframe and power considerations. Not a great air assault platform.
devil39
Sr. Member
- Reaction score
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- Points
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Absolutlely one of the most important things you will do as a soldier is go to the field and practice your trade in the most realistic conditions possible.
Having taken part in and observed on a number of these exercises they are likely some of the most valuable training you will do as a Reservist. Field time is the soldiers bread and butter. You stand to experience and learn as much on one of these longer exercises as you would in an entire year of Class A.
There are always people who will complain (it is one of the constants of soldiering) no matter how an exercise is conducted.
How to get through it? Watch and learn, and do what you have been taught. It is only 9 days.
Bottom line, this exercise is what soldiering is about. Good for the individual soldier and very good for leaders at all levels.
Those who do not wish to take part in these big collective exercises should seriously re-evaluate why they continue to collect the "Queen‘s Shilling".
- Reaction score
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devil39,
I‘ll second that. ANY training is good training now days. Make a couple of extra bucks, spend all that time with your buddies Any day you learn something new, good or bad, is not wasted. As to the whiners, get it on or give it up. Don‘t like it? Do your job, get promoted and do something about it. Besides who said the Ex was supposed to be only about YOU? You just sound spoiled to me, got a couple of whiny kiddies next door like that.Got to listen to them every day when they get home from primary school.
I‘ll second that. ANY training is good training now days. Make a couple of extra bucks, spend all that time with your buddies
Any day you learn something new, good or bad, is not wasted. As to the whiners, get it on or give it up. Don‘t like it? Do your job, get promoted and do something about it. Besides who said the Ex was supposed to be only about YOU? You just sound spoiled to me, got a couple of whiny kiddies next door like that.Got to listen to them every day when they get home from primary school.
- Reaction score
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- Points
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... 30 secs to offload... with "Chinook, seats out"... but on SG03 we had the helos with seats in. You had to strap in for ‘safety‘. Would they do that in the theatre? I dunno, haven‘t been, but yes, there was plenty of time on the deck during the load and unload. Mind you, I wasn‘t aiming anti-armour weapons at the helo while it was on the ground, so I can‘t say it was enough time to engage it, but if the goal is to have as little time as possible sitting on the grass, we failed.
While I can‘t disagree with devil39 that any training is good training, I can disagree that SG03 was "what soldier was about" or that it should stand as an example of what is bread and butter training.
It is plainly _obvious_ that the ex was run primarily for the benefit of the officers who plan and execute it, not the grunts on the ground. Anyone who was there would know that, and as the saying goes, I was there.
My the sounds of it, the past milcons were the cat‘s tits. Hard work, hard marching, hard fun. Last year was very much a hurry up and wait situation, and no one below the rank of Major appeared to have any say in how things ran.
If they‘re running these things for the benefit of the people at my level, and this is the impression that people at my level are getting, then something is wrong in the system, and it needs to be fixed.
Is SG04 going to be a bad go? Probably not. But if it‘s like last year, I gather lots of folks... some of them normally good troops ... will make excuses not to go. I don‘t plan on being one of them, but nor will I keep my expectations too high.
It is what it is, and as always, I will work on keeping MY skills at the top level as much as I can while I‘m there, tagging along and following the script.
While I can‘t disagree with devil39 that any training is good training, I can disagree that SG03 was "what soldier was about" or that it should stand as an example of what is bread and butter training.
It is plainly _obvious_ that the ex was run primarily for the benefit of the officers who plan and execute it, not the grunts on the ground. Anyone who was there would know that, and as the saying goes, I was there.
My the sounds of it, the past milcons were the cat‘s tits. Hard work, hard marching, hard fun. Last year was very much a hurry up and wait situation, and no one below the rank of Major appeared to have any say in how things ran.
If they‘re running these things for the benefit of the people at my level, and this is the impression that people at my level are getting, then something is wrong in the system, and it needs to be fixed.
Is SG04 going to be a bad go? Probably not. But if it‘s like last year, I gather lots of folks... some of them normally good troops ... will make excuses not to go. I don‘t plan on being one of them, but nor will I keep my expectations too high.
It is what it is, and as always, I will work on keeping MY skills at the top level as much as I can while I‘m there, tagging along and following the script.
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Unfortunately, we only had about 4 Griffons (commercial version of the Huey painted green) total for the company "air assualt" portion, and the only place Canada has Cobras or any manner of gunship is in my wet dreams. And arty prep is another fantasy of any Cdn reservist grunt.
Falcon, I don‘t know which lift you were on, but my boys had their asses off the bird in under 15 seconds from the time I got the thumbs up from the crew dog, and the Griffs didn‘t hang around on the LZ more than a minute IIRC. As with everything, we have top notch guys operating suboptimal equipment, I‘d hang a ride with those pilots any day. But for all I know, you were on the lift where more than one chalk got tossed off a bird by a crew chief because their loading drills were so ate up.
The main gripe, SG 03 was a typical weekend militia ex (balls to the walls, cram in everything possible, no sleep, no time, RUN RUN RUN!!!) extended over a weeklong period. Everything was hurry up and wait, GO FASTER, no no, just wait, go slower... you get the picture. If you wanna cack the troops, hey, that‘s part of the game, but try and find some time for guys to get a bit of shuteye, or you‘ll just wind up having troops drone their way thru things like what happened the last few days of the whole thing last year.
And the transport cockups were ridiculous, not just the big yellows, but the gaggle on the day everyone left. I had my car down on the Mattawa, but had to wait six hours after being outprocessed to leave. I never did get a cogent explanation for that bit of screwing around, so I never could tell if the unit or the ex was the one who deserves the blame.
As for surivival tips... first, guzzle water when you can. If it‘s as hot and humid as last year, and if you‘re wearing flak jackets and helmets to dig in or march around in, you‘re gonna get heat phucked bad if you don‘t keep the water down your neck and the sunscreen on whatever skin you have exposed. And keep demanding water be pushed down to you and your fireteam partner, because supply didn‘t always seem to remember that unwatered troops keep the medics unneccessarily busy. Keep an eye on buddy, and have him keep an eye on you. First sign either of you are getting squirrley, push the water!!
Second, embrace the suck. You‘re getting paid well (it‘s never enough for the torment or stupidity, but remember, you volunteered for this) so ignore the flying gaggle****s, rampant glazed-eye look of people having no clue what‘s going one, and the fact that you are in a logic-free zone. Keep the whining to minimum, and take the time to notice what the senior corporals are doing, and try to emulate them.
And the last thing, KEEP A GRIP ON YOUR GODDAMM KIT! Do be THAT ****ie that leaves his helmet in the ORV after he gets all screwy and stupid because he didn‘t drink up and got heat ****ed. And if you do, don‘t mind me laughing my *** off while your section 2ic extracts his revenge on your numpty ***.
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Sir, when you want to quote a section of someone‘s post, just cut and paste that portion and add ‘square bracket quote square bracket‘ in the beginning and add ‘square bracket /quote square bracket‘ at the end. Of course, using [ and ] for square brackets.
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48Highlander
Guest
Like Portculisguy said, past SG‘s were a lot better. A lot harder but much better training. I think it was in SG 2000 that we did advance to contact for 20 kilometers one day. March with rucks for a km, come under fire, react, eliminate the enemy, consolidate, and then march another km. Guys were coming down with heat exhaustion and everyone was tired as **** by the end of the day, but it was undeniably good training. A lot better than sitting around on our kit all day waiting for a chopper ride. SG 2003 was basicaly 9 days of poorly organised stand training.
and if that sounds like whining to you, **** ya. the only way things improve is through criticism. maybe someone with lots of stripes will see this thread and try to do things differently next time. maybe not. either way, it‘s a soldiers right to complain. if it‘s offending your delicate sensibilities, you‘re in the wrong proffession.
and if that sounds like whining to you, **** ya. the only way things improve is through criticism. maybe someone with lots of stripes will see this thread and try to do things differently next time. maybe not. either way, it‘s a soldiers right to complain. if it‘s offending your delicate sensibilities, you‘re in the wrong proffession.
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G3, I kinda guessed that you were an officer based on your inability to correctly use the quote function. And I know you are who you say you are. Devil39, obviously I am not a bird. My screen name was choosen for the fact that a falcon is the predominant portion of my regimental crest. Marauder, I was part of the group running the Helicopter stand at SG03. I was the Cpl by the Met Shack watching everything. So I witnessed every take off and landing performed. And from what I saw, we would of lost our birds and all souls onboard a number of times over. Thankfully there was no enemy on the ground.
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Couldn‘t agree with ya more 48highlander
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Thanks - I think I have the hang of it now....Originally posted by RoyalHighlandFusilier:
[qb] Sir, when you want to quote a section of someone‘s post, just cut and paste that portion and add ‘square bracket quote square bracket‘ in the beginning and add ‘square bracket /quote square bracket‘ at the end. Of course, using [ and ] for square brackets.
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It certainly was stand based - which has been fixed for this year. I realise that it may not have been all that smooth from your perspective, and hence may have looked poorly organised. There hasn‘t been an Area concentration in many years, and we had to re-learn a few lessons the hard way. We are definitely trying to do things differently this year. I can tell you that this exercise will be significantly better than last year, and than all of the Concentrations I have been on in 8 years of Reserves, 3 years of RSS, and 2 years of 10/90.
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48Highlander
Guest
I‘m very glad to hear that sir, but I don‘t want to get my hopes up untill I actually see it
- Reaction score
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The Para Coy will be a formed Coy throughout the EX. It will conduct para refresher on Sun / Mon, culminating in a no-eqpt refresher jump. Tues it will conduct battle procedure for a tactical jump Wed, which will be an Airborne Raid on a CSS objective. Thurs is battle procedure for Fridays footborne live fire block. I am trying to fit in one other activity (likely to be a raid or ambush), so I will update this forum (and the website) once that is sorted out.
