Federal Government & Union spar over returning to office

[Remius]

It's not a stat / not meant to be strictly literal. It's from my earlier post where I quipped that the public sector is a place where 5% of the people do 95% of the work. It's a play off of Price's Law, except my personal experience says in government it's much worse.

So not an actual metric beyond opinion and anecdotal. Hard to discuss a number and your follow on points when you have nothing factual to back it up with. I’m not saying there isn’t dead weight. My experience also anecdotal in 3 different departments is like anywhere else you have 10% of your people that take up 90% of your time. On any team I’ve been on there have been some underperformers. But nowhere near the made up numbers you are providing. I’ll accept that it’s hyperbolic or at least concede that where ever you worked in the PS that it was probably a really bad place.

The issue with the deadweight for me is no one deals with them. They tend to move on before anything is done, get promoted out or just get shuffled off to be someone else’s problem. Most of us with any real time in the PS or CAF has seen this a few times.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Common sense suggests the first cut for a model of performers and non-performers should, as for many human attributes, resemble a bell curve.

 

[Furniture]

The issue with the deadweight for me is no one deals with them. They tend to move on before anything is done, get promoted out or just get shuffled off to be someone else’s problem. Most of us with any real time in the PS or CAF has seen this a few times.

I have family and friends in the private sector who complain about the same things... almost as if it's a pretty normal thing when multiple humans work in a place.

The movie Office Space wasn't made about public servants, and it seemed to resonate with a lot of people who work in offices...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

And you're suggesting that it's isolated to those levels then? If the executive and senior managerial levels are incompetent and lack any form of accountability, I should have no reason to be concerned that this might trickle down into and infect the rest of the public service.....?



I say again, I should have no reason to be concerned that this lack of accountability might trickle down into and infect the rest of the public service....?



Yep, being a 5%'er sucks, but I'm glad someone on here is finally admitting out loud that there's "more than the fair share" of O2 thieves in the public service (i.e. the public service has disproportionate too many O2 thieves, yet higher pay?), rather than trying to pretend the patently obvious is not obvious... particularly worth an eyeroll when it's done towards people who worked in the CAF so literally saw it for themselves anyway.



You asked "why is it that..." and got your answer, if you'd prefer to simply believe it's because people are "jealous," then don't ask - I don't really care if you're "persuaded" and ps I am definitely not jealous



Do you have any evidence that the pension benefits of public servants was a commonplace in the years gone by?



That's an interesting spin. You think the track record shows that compensation was better throughout history, but it's been stripped away, and simply at a faster rate in the private sector?

This whole thing reminds me of Darnell Nurse's contract with the Oilers. He got paid way too much and can't live up to the contact. I would never blame Nurse for signing that contract - any player in the league would have signed it. However, when Darnell Nurse gets criticized for his contract, he actually steps up and plays a little better.... and he sure isn't refusing to come to work because he hasn't got a fair enough shake just yet.

I will speak to that "Higher pay". Our clerical staff is well paid (At the time a CR3 made as much as a CCG Deckhand). However anyone with technical training was underpaid compared to their industry counterpart. It became very difficult to find Ship Inspector, as pay for someone with a Ocean going Marine Ticket was way under the industry standard. It used to be that government employees were under paid comparative to industry, but had good benefits, pension and stability. So it was a tradeoff. With pensions and stability in question, it makes it very hard to get good people on the technical side.

 

[brihard]

I will speak to that "Higher pay". Our clerical staff is well paid (At the time a CR3 made as much as a CCG Deckhand). However anyone with technical training was underpaid compared to their industry counterpart. It became very difficult to find Ship Inspector, as pay for someone with a Ocean going Marine Ticket was way under the industry standard. It used to be that government employees were under paid comparative to industry, but had good benefits, pension and stability. So it was a tradeoff. With pensions and stability in question, it makes it very hard to get good people on the technical side.

Pensions for the federal public service are rock solid, they’re as gold plated as they come. Given what you just said about the difficulty in attracting and maintaining technical experts, are you suggesting job stability for those willing to work PS as tech experts is lacking?

 

[Brad Sallows]

Pensions for the federal public service are rock solid, they’re as gold plated as they come.

On that...public employees ought to receive an annual statement of the value of their pension, with a bottom-line number of what it would cost them to buy it with a lump sum at whatever their expected retirement age is. The value ought to include the value of cost-of-living indexing, whether capped or unlimited. The value of unlimited indexing ought to be based on a long history of real cost-of-living increases, not some estimate based on expectations of what the BoC might do to control inflation.

They can do their own arithmetic to figure out how long and how much they'd have to save working elsewhere, to come up with that lump sum.

 

[McG]

So not an actual metric beyond opinion and anecdotal.

It it even anecdote. It is pure hyperbole.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Pensions for the federal public service are rock solid, they’re as gold plated as they come. Given what you just said about the difficulty in attracting and maintaining technical experts, are you suggesting job stability for those willing to work PS as tech experts is lacking?

As I understand it, they are no longer offering indexed pensions for people hired after a certain date, but can't seem to find any link to that? But it was a very hot topic when I was in. For someone looking in and weighing their choices the "We can't afford the PS pension plan" statements they hear and the reality of how hard it can be to actually get a indeterminate position which will offer stability, the shine comes off as people dig deeper. Going from $150,000 to $100,000 or less, you better be getting something out of it.

 

[Eaglelord17]

As I understand it, they are no longer offering indexed pensions for people hired after a certain date, but can't seem to find any link to that? But it was a very hot topic when I was in. For someone looking in and weighing their choices the "We can't afford the PS pension plan" statements they hear and the reality of how hard it can be to actually get a indeterminate position which will offer stability, the shine comes off as people dig deeper. Going from $150,000 to $100,000 or less, you better be getting something out of it.

Generally better pension (private sector pensions tend to suck, mine pays me 3.25$ a hour worked into it, or pays out approximately 33k a year todays money and it runs out after 25 years, age 90, with no indexing), much better benefits (I have to partially pay for my prescription safety glasses, regular glasses, a lot of drugs, a bit towards my dental, etc.), much better vacation (I have been on 2 weeks vacation for the last 7 years, finally getting 3 weeks next year), and much more job stability.

If the pay is a 50k difference however many will choose that over the other benefits at least in the short term.

For those moaning about being forced back to the office though, they really don’t understand how little the average public cares about their ‘plight’. The view from the outside is a bunch of spoiled workers who are refusing to do what they are told.

If my boss ordered me to be at a certain place at a certain time and I refused, I would be fired. Thats all there is to it. We should do the same treatment with the Public Service, its not like most the employees couldn’t be replaced very quickly with someone more than happy to have a job with that level of security, pay and benefits.

 

[Remius]

For those moaning about being forced back to the office though, they really don’t understand how little the average public cares about their ‘plight’. The view from the outside is a bunch of spoiled workers who are refusing to do what they are told.

This is correct. The « plight » though has not been properly communicated either so that doesn’t help.

If my boss ordered me to be at a certain place at a certain time and I refused, I would be fired. Thats all there is to it. We should do the same treatment with the Public Service, its not like most the employees couldn’t be replaced very quickly with someone more than happy to have a job with that level of security, pay and benefits.

That’s the challenge though. There are some classifications that are incredibly competitive and could walk away and would be very hard to replace. We are already struggling to attract specific talent and the private sector has embraced more flexible options like WFH and hybrid because they know it can make a difference competitively.

I’m old school. Work from home, work on site, hybrid. I’ll do what I am told but I still recognize that this has been poorly executed and communicated and there is a hodge podge of things being done with little thought to it beyond the get back in the office messaging.

Best solution in my mind is for departments to actively track the issues and compile data on the effect of the policy. Right now none of this seems data driven at all. On all sides.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Generally better pension (private sector pensions tend to suck, mine pays me 3.25$ a hour worked into it, or pays out approximately 33k a year todays money and it runs out after 25 years, age 90, with no indexing), much better benefits (I have to partially pay for my prescription safety glasses, regular glasses, a lot of drugs, a bit towards my dental, etc.), much better vacation (I have been on 2 weeks vacation for the last 7 years, finally getting 3 weeks next year), and much more job stability.

My friend... That sounds horrible, can you come back to the CAF ?

 

[Eaglelord17]

My friend... That sounds horrible, can you come back to the CAF ?

If I had the joys of being young, dumb, and single again I would do it in a heartbeat.

This isn’t to say there aren’t some good benefits to my job, the pay is good, the work itself is extremely interesting (maintenance machining/fitting, for example I have been working on a giant 56 thousand pound shaft in a lathe from the 1890s for the last few weeks), if I stay long enough I get 7 weeks vacation (1 week extra every 5 years), etc.

There is always cons such as shift work, a crappy pension, and somewhat crappy benefits, but every job has cons.

My point is just that many in the public sector don’t appreciate the benefits they have because they are used to them. I have somewhat crappy benefits yet I acknowledge that it is still better than many in the private sector, even if they are behind the public sector.

 

[brihard]

As I understand it, they are no longer offering indexed pensions for people hired after a certain date, but can't seem to find any link to that? But it was a very hot topic when I was in. For someone looking in and weighing their choices the "We can't afford the PS pension plan" statements they hear and the reality of how hard it can be to actually get a indeterminate position which will offer stability, the shine comes off as people dig deeper. Going from $150,000 to $100,000 or less, you better be getting something out of it.

Not sure if you’re referring to a provincial plan? I know the tall three federal pension plans remain defined benefit and fully indexed. Getting indeterminate in the PS can be hard though.

Provincially I know the Ontario Municipalities pension (OMERS) remains defined benefit and nearly fully indexed- there’s an indexing cap where, if hit, they won’t exceed it in that year, but will catch it up in future years that fall back below. But that hasn’t ever actually happened yet.

Protecting the defined benefit pensions will be the hill for public sector unions to die on over the course of my generation.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Not sure if you’re referring to a provincial plan? I know the tall three federal pension plans remain defined benefit and fully indexed. Getting indeterminate in the PS can be hard though.

Provincially I know the Ontario Municipalities pension (OMERS) remains defined benefit and nearly fully indexed- there’s an indexing cap where, if hit, they won’t exceed it in that year, but will catch it up in future years that fall back below. But that hasn’t ever actually happened yet.

Protecting the defined benefit pensions will be the hill for public sector unions to die on over the course of my generation.

Perhaps they were successful in stopping it then.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Generally better pension (private sector pensions tend to suck, mine pays me 3.25$ a hour worked into it, or pays out approximately 33k a year todays money and it runs out after 25 years, age 90, with no indexing), much better benefits (I have to partially pay for my prescription safety glasses, regular glasses, a lot of drugs, a bit towards my dental, etc.), much better vacation (I have been on 2 weeks vacation for the last 7 years, finally getting 3 weeks next year), and much more job stability.

If the pay is a 50k difference however many will choose that over the other benefits at least in the short term.

For those moaning about being forced back to the office though, they really don’t understand how little the average public cares about their ‘plight’. The view from the outside is a bunch of spoiled workers who are refusing to do what they are told.

If my boss ordered me to be at a certain place at a certain time and I refused, I would be fired. Thats all there is to it. We should do the same treatment with the Public Service, its not like most the employees couldn’t be replaced very quickly with someone more than happy to have a job with that level of security, pay and benefits.

In big organizations, you need unions, because the org can crush you without even meaning to. The unions can be a pain in the ass as well. In the PS the most vocal people seen to be clerical staff and lower end staff. In my last position I felt well paid and supported, no complaints other than the idea of shrinking the office footprint. Big orgs get a new idea, wallow in it for awhile and then go for the next shiny new idea.

 

[daftandbarmy]

In big organizations, you need unions, because the org can crush you without even meaning to. The unions can be a pain in the ass as well. In the PS the most vocal people seen to be clerical staff and lower end staff. In my last position I felt well paid and supported, no complaints other than the idea of shrinking the office footprint. Big orgs get a new idea, wallow in it for awhile and then go for the next shiny new idea.

You're welcome

 

[Eaglelord17]

In big organizations, you need unions, because the org can crush you without even meaning to. The unions can be a pain in the ass as well. In the PS the most vocal people seen to be clerical staff and lower end staff. In my last position I felt well paid and supported, no complaints other than the idea of shrinking the office footprint. Big orgs get a new idea, wallow in it for awhile and then go for the next shiny new idea.

My union is why I am only getting 3.25$ per hour to my pension.

About 12 years ago they sold out all future employees to a defined contribution plan instead of the defined benefit plan they had. All existing employees got grandfathered in so they never cared about the new hires and since union leadership tends to be the older members they have never pushed for the younger members as it doesn’t directly benefit them.

We are finally getting to a tipping point where there is about equal numbers on the new pension plan, which hopefully will mean we can get it improved.

To have gotten the same amount on the new plan they would have had to give us at least 8$ a hour. Its nice to know I am getting paid less than the other guy in a union environment doing the same job, which is supposed to be one of the benefits of a union.

 

[CountDC]

During my time in Ottawa I worked in three different departments at pearkes. For the most part the PS that I had contact with gave full value with their work. The main ones I had contact with that appeared to me they were not providing full value were in the Admin on the 3rd floor. My last one was mostly PS with each a one man shop that was constantly busy. A few months before I left there we did have an upper management parachuted in for some reason that no one including the management already in place understood why. That was the most blatant waste I had direct contact with. The job seemed to be to take the reports the manager already there would present to the general and present them to the general ??? I only saw and heard anything from them during the introduction meeting. Supposedly it was for career development.

 

[daftandbarmy]

During my time in Ottawa I worked in three different departments at pearkes. For the most part the PS that I had contact with gave full value with their work. The main ones I had contact with that appeared to me they were not providing full value were in the Admin on the 3rd floor. My last one was mostly PS with each a one man shop that was constantly busy. A few months before I left there we did have an upper management parachuted in for some reason that no one including the management already in place understood why. That was the most blatant waste I had direct contact with. The job seemed to be to take the reports the manager already there would present to the general and present them to the general ??? I only saw and heard anything from them during the introduction meeting. Supposedly it was for career development.

It would be fun to ask this question, alot

 

[OldSolduer]

During my time in Ottawa I worked in three different departments at pearkes. For the most part the PS that I had contact with gave full value with their work. The main ones I had contact with that appeared to me they were not providing full value were in the Admin on the 3rd floor. My last one was mostly PS with each a one man shop that was constantly busy. A few months before I left there we did have an upper management parachuted in for some reason that no one including the management already in place understood why. That was the most blatant waste I had direct contact with. The job seemed to be to take the reports the manager already there would present to the general and present them to the general ??? I only saw and heard anything from them during the introduction meeting. Supposedly it was for career development.

Or hiding an incompetent dunderhead