Future Helicopters

[SeaKingTacco]

I’d blame it entirely in DCostS and the wonderfully types like JZ, but that particular flavour of infinitesimal introspection hadn’t been born yet…I will say that I think when the window was open for flexibility, it slammed shut with higher-level, it’s done, move on-like force that overtook the operational downside and time and monetary cost impact of a single sim. It was definitely oroject-specific because I have it in good authority that at the same time, another fleet project was pitching and got four sims in one location (1/4 was/is deployable but C-130 to any theatre of operations).

I would take a sea can sim, in a heartbeat…

 

[Good2Golf]

I thought I remembered seeing some company literature discussing the promotion of a civil/commercial version of the technology.

Techi-Color false memories again?

AW 690

 

[Kirkhill]

AW 690

Thanks

 

[Good2Golf]

Thanks

¡De Nada! (Autocorrect ruined my accurate AW609 with an incorrect 690….)

 

[Kirkhill]

¡De Nada! (Autocorrect ruined my accurate AW609 with an incorrect 690….)

Found it anyway. (Autocorrect corrected it back - 2 wrongs do make a right).

 

[KevinB]

As far as I know at this point, V-280 is definitely going to be ITAR for some time.

I am sure Bell will kick out a commercial bird based on it - but without stuff that a Military would want in a bird.
The question is would there be any takers (at least on a commercially feasible scale).

I tend to doubt it - as the tangible benefits won't outweigh the costs for a commercial operator, at least for the foreseeable future.

 

[Good2Golf]

I don’t think there is enough margin to make it worth it to them. With electric-powered Advanced Air Mobility (drone taxis) coming in strong, for shorter range commuting, I’m not sure there’s an aching hole where a tilt-to rot would displace any other means of transport. That’s why they (Bell) let the 609 program drift over to Leonardo. Textron Mothership is focused big-time in FLRAA. That’s where the $$$ is, as far as Texteon is concerned (we’ll, that and shilling TAPVs around the world… )

 

[KevinB]

I don’t think there is enough margin to make it worth it to them. With electric-powered Advanced Air Mobility (drone taxis) coming in strong, for shorter range commuting, I’m not sure there’s an aching hole where a tilt-to rot would displace any other means of transport. That’s why they (Bell) let the 609 program drift over to Leonardo. Textron Mothership is focused big-time in FLRAA. That’s where the $$$ is, as far as Texteon is concerned (we’ll, that and shilling TAPVs around the world… )

I am sure if it wins FVL - it will drive a lot of FMS, and certain folks with massive pockets will want their own clone...

Now for my cynical outlook - doesn't the 360 Invictus have a very Comanche look/feel to it

 

[Good2Golf]

Now for my cynical outlook - doesn't the 360 Invictus have a very Comanche look/feel to it

Nope….TOTALLY different…not recycling any technology already paid by US DoD to make more profit now…

 

[KevinB]

Nope….TOTALLY different…not recycling any technology already paid by US DoD to make more profit now…


View attachment 66998

For the rest who maybe didn't get that.

RAH-66 Comache

Bell 360 - Future Attack Reconnaissance Aircraft (FARA)

Always ready. The future fight requires increased range, speed, agility and lethality. It requires seamless coordination between Army aviation and the maneuver force. It requires persistence, fearlessness, and must own the information domain. The Bell 360 Invictus delivers the U.S. Army’s...

www.bellflight.com

 

[Kirkhill]

I am sure Bell will kick out a commercial bird based on it - but without stuff that a Military would want in a bird.
The question is would there be any takers (at least on a commercially feasible scale).

I tend to doubt it - as the tangible benefits won't outweigh the costs for a commercial operator, at least for the foreseeable future.

In a Canadian context, where Twin Otters are still found to have utility, as do civilian helicopters, moving people around would seem to be the first priority. And developing pilots and users that know the capabilities and limits of the technology.

Before anybody starts to worry about people shooting at them.



3 or 4 "commercial" "non-ITAR" models (MilCOTs if you will) and a couple of bells and whistles military squadrons.

 

[KevinB]

In a Canadian context, where Twin Otters are still found to have utility, as do civilian helicopters, moving people around would seem to be the first priority. And developing pilots and users that know the capabilities and limits of the technology.

Before anybody starts to worry about people shooting at them.



3 or 4 "commercial" "non-ITAR" models (MilCOTs if you will) and a couple of bells and whistles military squadrons.

To be argumentative

I don't see the TWOT to be a good comparison -

Plus don't get me started on MILCOTS - I think the CF got hosed with those.


The Airframe is a Military design - it has a lot of those bells and whistles built in so when people are shooting at it it doesn't spontaneously combust.
While you could strip out part of the avionics package, AC built in Weapon power (miniguns), fire control systems, and TFR and other augments - it's still going to be pricey -
Given the design of the rotors - I am not sure trying to find a "cheaper design" would be cheaper due to additional stresses they take, and the R&D costs to find out.

I am sure it could be done - but the costs would be significant and Bell would need guaranteed sales of those to justify it.

 

[Good2Golf]

DE-MILSPEC is for sure going to be more expensive than “militarized.” Taking KevinB’s point to the here and now, there is no large commercial tilt rotor now, so at best you could militarize the AW609 to conduct scout-type tasks. De-militarizing a V-280 (or V-22 even), only to re-militarize it doesn’t make a who lot of sense…except if SNC Lavelin proposes doing that to the current GoC…then I could see someone trying to explain why it would make sense…

 

[Kirkhill]

I understand both of you. And it makes sense.

I guess we'll just have to wait until I'm in the ground before we start seeing VTOLs taking the place of Twotters and snowy gravel runways.

As to the MilCOTS thing, hosed or not, I'd sooner have something than nothing.

 

[Good2Golf]

I think the Twotter will even outlast this year’s recruits entering the CAF…

Re: MILCOTS…yeah, and it depends the platform. Having both Griffon and Twin Huey time, I gotta say the Griffon as essentially a MILCOTS aircraft, got some tough press, but I’d still to this day take it over the Huey. It (Griffon) is what it is - but except for doing airshows and bringing the occasional tear to a Vietnam Vet’s eye at a flyover, the Huey would be #2 every time in my books.

 

[KevinB]

I think the Twotter will even outlast this year’s recruits entering the CAF…

Re: MILCOTS…yeah, and it depends the platform. Having both Griffon and Twin Huey time, I gotta say the Griffon as essentially a MILCOTS aircraft, got some tough press, but I’d still to this day take it over the Huey. It (Griffon) is what it is - but except for doing airshows and bringing the occasional tear to a Vietnam Vet’s eye at a flyover, the Huey would be #2 every time in my books.

Huey can be deceptive thought -as the Griffon is still a Huey (Bell 412), as was the UH-1N (CH-135 Twin Huey) and the UH-1H (CH-118 Iroquois).
I'll default to your expertise in the seat - but since we are talking about Huey's - this would have been a much be a better version for the CF

Bell UH-1Y - The Ultimate Utility Helicopter

Perform under punishing conditions. The Bell UH-1Y combines combat-proven power with dependable components—arming you for the toughest missions.

www.bellflight.com

 

[Good2Golf]

And I’d take the Y over a 412 as well…just that it wasn’t an option at the time. Ironically, the Y is more Black Hawk (and Cobra) than Huey. The share the same T700 engines and similar transmission other equivalent components.

Fun fact: the only components actually retained from the Marines’ UH-1Ns? The tail pedals and small side cargo door. USMC for the “O&M refresh” win.

 

[KevinB]

And I’d take the Y over a 412 as well…just that it wasn’t an option at the time. Ironically, the Y is more Black Hawk (and Cobra) than Huey. The share the same T700 engines and similar transmission other equivalent components.

Fun fact: the only components actually retained from the Marines’ UH-1Ns? The tail pedals and small side cargo door. USMC for the “O&M refresh” win.

Lets not announce the Cobra compatibility aspects -- I want the RCAF to get Y's so an enterprising Squadron can assemble a few Z's from spare parts

 

[Kirkhill]

Enterprise is a great thing.

The Helicopter.

A powerpack with stuff bolted on.

 

[Kirkhill]

Enterprise is a great thing.

The Helicopter.

A powerpack with stuff bolted on.

S'funny! Do we really need to bolt on a pilot?

Pilot and Co-Pilot and Gunners with armoured seats. Or. More fuel, ammunition, missiles, and guns.

Optionally manned Griffons?