Future Helicopters

[KevinB]

For that matter - why consider building 5000 hour airframes if airworthy 500 hour airframes can be built faster and cheaper. Keep them on local civilian sites for emergency call out so they maintain low hours. And convert them to drones when they start approaching their limits. Regularly buy replacements employing Quebec workers.

How does one get all those rather large drones into theatre?

I do not believe that model would work at all for the CF, it would work for China - and Russia - because their general model is pumping out crap, plus they are local to the areas of most likely conflict.


However - do you really want to put people into a faster to produce and cheaper airframe?
I would postulate that no, that's probably not wanted by anyone.

Military Rotary Wing assist aren't built for frills - they are built for crew survivability and mission success -- stripping out those things just makes junk.

 

[Kirkhill]

How does one get all those rather large drones into theatre?

I do not believe that model would work at all for the CF, it would work for China - and Russia - because their general model is pumping out crap, plus they are local to the areas of most likely conflict.


However - do you really want to put people into a faster to produce and cheaper airframe?
I would postulate that no, that's probably not wanted by anyone.

Military Rotary Wing assist aren't built for frills - they are built for crew survivability and mission success -- stripping out those things just makes junk.

Well, some might fly themselves. Some might be flown by a person until they got into the theater when optionally manned.

The Longest Ever Flight Was Over 64 Days In A Cessna 172

Often, when we think of long-endurance flights, our first thoughts jump to military operations. Big planes with highly-trained crew will fly for long periods, using air-to-air refuelling to stay al…

hackaday.com

The possibilities are extensive, if not endless.

As for Canada - it has a small number of people scattered all over a large area that need a lift once in a while. Either a lot of aircraft with low hours or a lot of hours on a small number of aircraft.

Putting people into a faster to produce and cheaper airframe?

https://www.uber.com/in/en/elevate/

And as for survivability, I thought even tanks occasionally got blowed up real good

Syria Proved that Germany’s Leopard 2 Tank was Far from Invincible

Germany’s Leopard 2 main battle tank has a reputation as one of the finest in the world, competing for that distinction with proven designs such as the American M1 Abrams and the British Challenger 2.

nationalinterest.org

 

[Dana381]

If The Tutor ever gets replaced they could use them, I heard once that there is a warehouse or hanger stuffed with old Tutors for snowbird replacements and parts. It has been armed for ground attack before by the Malaysians. Viking is good at building planes from old drawings, maybe they could make the hardpoints. Have a pilot fly them into theater then run unmanned while attacking.

 

[KevinB]

https://vtol.org/files/dmfile/fvl-v-novdec-2021.pdf

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Well 6 of these in Gray run by TC and leased to the RCN would be very helpful, right now

Bell Textron Canada and the Canadian Coast Guard announce delivery of final Bell helicopter under Coast Guard’s Helicopter renewal plan - Canada.ca

Today, Bell Textron Canada, a Textron Inc. (NYSE: TXT) company, and the Canadian Coast Guard announced the delivery of a new Bell 429 helicopter to the Coast Guard at Bell’s Mirabel facility. The delivery, which occurred on September 15, marks an important milestone for both Bell Textron Canada...

www.canada.ca

 

[KevinB]

Well 6 of these in Gray run by TC and leased to the RCN would be very helpful, right now

Bell Textron Canada and the Canadian Coast Guard announce delivery of final Bell helicopter under Coast Guard’s Helicopter renewal plan - Canada.ca

Today, Bell Textron Canada, a Textron Inc. (NYSE: TXT) company, and the Canadian Coast Guard announced the delivery of a new Bell 429 helicopter to the Coast Guard at Bell’s Mirabel facility. The delivery, which occurred on September 15, marks an important milestone for both Bell Textron Canada...

www.canada.ca

It's a modern Jet Ranger - what purpose could it serve for the RCN?
Honestly I get a kick out Bell's webpages as their passenger capacities are all over the place.
They have 4+8 for the UH-1Y and 1+14 for the 412 (while the Y has a significantly larger payload)


What would be really helpful now is if Canada had 3 (or more) Squadrons of CH-147F instead of one - and a CH-146 replacement already done and fielded.

 

[Good2Golf]

A 429 is tiny. Slightly bigger than a Kiowa/Jet Ranger, and the BO-105 it replaces, but at 7,500lbs max weight (including fuel), its only a light-utility wagon taking a few people around. Take the pilot out of the equation and you have about 2200lbs of payload to play with which includes fuel, up to 1250 lbs, so with may fuel, you have just over 900 lbs payload, which would be at most 4 pers with survival suits/gear. maybe a bit more payload trading fuel for passengers, but adding yet another type of aircraft to the RCAF fleets is a significant institutional load for limited capability (especially taking maintenance quals, life-cycle and logistics support, training, currency of crew, etc. into account). Just send the 148s inshore to help in utility mode.

 

[KevinB]

Dump 148's at sea after stripping anything useful.
Move 149's to MH - buy lots more Hooks...

Paint first "new" -F yellow as SAR bird make lots of press.
buy remainder in Green

 

[dapaterson]

Tell me again what the opportunity cost is for 50(ish) aircrew to spend a minimum of two weeks per year in Shearwater, on top of sea going deployments?

There is the additional genetic diversity in the valley argument...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It's a modern Jet Ranger - what purpose could it serve for the RCN?
Honestly I get a kick out Bell's webpages as their passenger capacities are all over the place.
They have 4+8 for the UH-1Y and 1+14 for the 412 (while the Y has a significantly larger payload)


What would be really helpful now is if Canada had 3 (or more) Squadrons of CH-147F instead of one - and a CH-146 replacement already done and fielded.

For the AOP's domestic ops, it can do ice recce, some SAR, sling gear, transport people. The CCG uses this type of helicopter all over the place, everyday and in remote areas. It would mean you have dedicated helicopters for domestic ops and the Caribbean, without tasking your Cyclones or crews, which are already being stretched thin.

 

[KevinB]

For the AOP's domestic ops, it can do ice recce, some SAR, sling gear, transport people. The CCG uses this type of helicopter all over the place, everyday and in remote areas. It would mean you have dedicated helicopters for domestic ops and the Caribbean, without tasking your Cyclones or crews, which are already being stretched thin.

Another orphan fleet will not help the CF, only hurt.

More Hooks - or failing that more 149's are needed - but I would go with the Hook as it does much better duty in all the roles except fitting into a smaller space...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Not orphaned at all, same helicopter as the CCG, run by the same people, basically the RCN is leasing the crews and aircraft. There are 325 flying globally. These would serve on the AOP's and occasional on the JSS either in place or with a Cyclone. Both the USN and RN use contractors with helicopters to provide non-combat helicopter services to their fleets. The aircraft and personal would be owned by Transport Canada, Civil Aviation branch. Who would look after parts, repairs, maintenance, training and HR.

It's very unlikely the 6 AOP's are going to have the Cyclones onboard much. Our fleet of naval helicopters is already to small and from what I see here, availability is not likley to improve any time soon. This is politically doable as the contract for the helicopter is based in Canada and does not trigger any new ITAR issues (unless there is a comm upgrade) The crews would be vetted by TC, so you have better security than with a private contractor. When not in use by the ships the helicopters can be tasked with domestic emergency response as required.

 

[Kirkhill]

Not orphaned at all, same helicopter as the CCG, run by the same people, basically the RCN is leasing the crews and aircraft. There are 325 flying globally. These would serve on the AOP's and occasional on the JSS either in place or with a Cyclone. Both the USN and RN use contractors with helicopters to provide non-combat helicopter services to their fleets. The aircraft and personal would be owned by Transport Canada, Civil Aviation branch. Who would look after parts, repairs, maintenance, training and HR.

It's very unlikely the 6 AOP's are going to have the Cyclones onboard much. Our fleet of naval helicopters is already to small and from what I see here, availability is not likley to improve any time soon. This is politically doable as the contract for the helicopter is based in Canada and does not trigger any new ITAR issues (unless there is a comm upgrade) The crews would be vetted by TC, so you have better security than with a private contractor. When not in use by the ships the helicopters can be tasked with domestic emergency response as required.

From the original Statement of Requirement Rev 3 ca 2010



1 The Canadian Coast Guard is in the early stages of a project to replace its fleet of helicopters. The
intent is to acquire 6 medium twin engined helicopters and 16 light twin engined helicopters. The likely
candidates to fill the requirement for medium helicopters are the Bell 412, the Eurocopter EC 155 and the
AgustaWestland AW139. The likely candidates to fill the requirement for light helicopters are the Bell
429, the Eurocopter EC 135, the Eurocopter EC 145 and the AgustaWestland AW109. For the purposes
of this specification and because it has the largest (an thus most demanding) folded dimensions, the
future Canadian Coast Guard medium helicopter is assumed to be the Bell 412 with optional blade folding
kit. Note that Canadian Coast Guard helicopters are operated by Transport Canada on behalf of the
Coast Guard.

Bell 412 and Bell 429 won. And the Transport Canada Bell 429 will likely be operating from the AOPS as an OGD on Ice Patrol.

It seems more likely that the AOPS in the North will be working with TC/CCG helicopters than CH-148s with the occasional visit by a CH-149.

In fact, in the North, and probably throughout the EEZ the AOPS will likely be operating more like the NoCGV Svalbard than a frigate.

Noteworthy is that although Norway differentiates between its Coast Guard vessels and it Navy vessels all vessels are armed and subject to the Navy.

Svalbard Armament NoCGV Svalbard - Wikipedia

Armament

Bofors 57 mm 12.7 mm machine gun Can carry 1 Simbad Surface to Air missile system[2]

 

[Kirkhill]

2 AOPS Operating Areas
The AOPS will normally operate in the areas of the Atlantic, Pacific and Arctic Oceans and
contiguous Canadian waters that constitute the Canadian Territorial Sea, Contiguous Zone, Exclusive
Economic Zone and Continental Shelf as defined in the Oceans Act.

Notwithstanding the normal operating areas, the AOPS shall be capable of worldwide operations in
littoral and open ocean conditions.

3 CONCEPT OF AOPS HELICOPTER OPERATIONS

3.1 General
Within the limits and restrictions described below, the AOPS shall be capable of:
a. controlling an approaching helicopter,
b. recovering a helicopter to the flight deck,
c. launching a helicopter from the flight deck,
d. controlling a departing helicopter,
e. securing a helicopter on the flight deck, and
f. fuelling a helicopter on the flight deck.


¹ The Canadian Coast Guard is in the early stages of a project to replace its fleet of helicopters.
The intent is to acquire 6 medium twin engined helicopters and 16 light twin engined helicopters.
The likely candidates to fill the requirement for medium helicopters are the Bell 412, the
Eurocopter EC 155 and the AgustaWestland AW139. The likely candidates to fill the requirement for
light helicopters are the Bell 429, the Eurocopter EC 135, the Eurocopter EC 145 and the
AgustaWestland AW109. For the purposes of this specification and because it has the largest (an
thus most demanding) folded dimensions, the future Canadian Coast Guard medium helicopter is
assumed to be the Bell 412 with optional blade folding kit. Note that Canadian Coast Guard
helicopters are operated by Transport Canada on behalf of the Coast Guard.

6 of 47




Arctic Offshore Patrol Ship Helicopter/Ship Interface Requirements Rev 3

The AOPS shall be capable of HIFR in accordance with CFTO C-12-124-A00/MB-002 Shipborne Helicopter
Operating Procedures (SHOPS) (dated 14 May 2008), Section 3 – Helicopter Fuelling Procedures.

The AOPS shall be capable of VERTREP in accordance with SHOPS, Section 4 – Vertical Replenishment,
Hoist Transfers and Administrative Flights.

3.2 Canadian Coast Guard Helicopter
The AOPS will operate a Canadian Coast Guard helicopter during deployments to the Canadian Arctic.

The AOPS may operate a Canadian Coast Guard helicopter on occasion during deployments in other
Canadian waters, including: the Atlantic Ocean, the Pacific Ocean, the Gulf of St. Lawrence and
the Great Lakes.

The AOPS will employ the Canadian Coast Guard helicopter for:
a. ice reconnaissance,
b. personnel and light cargo transfer between ship and shore,
c. medical evacuation, and
d. Search and Rescue.

The AOPS shall operate Canadian Coast Guard helicopters²:
a. day and night,
b. under Visual Flight Rules (VFR) and Instrument Flight Rules (IFR)³,
c. in seas up to and including the top of Sea State 3⁴,
d. at any ship’s speed,
e. at any relative heading, and
f. at any relative wind over the arc from 30 degrees port to 30 starboard at any speed up to 35⁵
knots.

The AOPS shall be capable of:
a. moving a Canadian Coast Guard helicopter from the stowed position in the hangar to the ready
position on the flight deck,
b. moving a Canadian Coast Guard helicopter from the landing position on the flight deck to the
stowed position in the hangar,
c. sheltering a Canadian Coast Guard helicopter in the hangar,


² These requirements are notional. Based on discussions with the pilot on CCGS Louis S. St.
Laurent, neither Transport Canada nor the Canadian Coast Guard has ship motion limits or any other
formal helicopter clearance criteria; the pilot will fly from and to the ship if he/she believes it
can be done safely. ³ The future fleet of Canadian Coast Guard helicopters will operate under both
VFR and IFR.
⁴ From STANAG 4194 Standardized Wave and Wind Environments and Shipboard Reporting of Sea
Conditions, Table D-1 NATO Sea State Numeral Table for the Open Ocean North Atlantic, Sea State 3
has significant wave heights ranging from 0.5 metres to 1.5 metres and a modal period ranging from
5 seconds to 14.8 seconds.
⁵ The limit of 35 knots is an estimate that must be confirmed. CFTO C-12-146-000/MB-002 CH 146
(Griffon) Flight Manual, Book 1 of 3, Section 1, 1.9 Airspeed states that the “maximum allowable
tailwind or crosswind speeds for hover operations … is 35 knots”.


7 of 47




Arctic Offshore Patrol Ship Helicopter/Ship Interface Requirements Rev 3


d. securing a Canadian Coast Guard helicopter in the hangar,
e. securing a Canadian Coast Guard helicopter on the flight deck, and
f. providing logistical support to a Canadian Coast Guard helicopter.

The AOPS shall provide sufficient protection for one Canadian Coast Guard helicopter for it to
survive the same high sea states experienced by the AOPS.

The AOPS shall provide the facilities and services required to maintain one Canadian Coast Guard
helicopter for deployments of up to 120 days duration, during which the helicopter is assumed to
fly for a total of approximately 150 hours⁶.

The AOPS shall carry sufficient aviation fuel to support the assumed operational tempo of one
Canadian Coast Guard helicopter.

The AOPS shall be capable of supporting personnel and light cargo transfer by a Canadian Coast
Guard helicopter.

 

[KevinB]

I'd argue it makes a lot more sense for CCG/TC 412's to operate from AOPS, as while I despise the Griffon, it's better than the 429 for that role.

 

[Good2Golf]

Either the 412 or 429 will be spicy! I’ve flown 135 and 146 from CCGS and RCN ships and let me tell you…skids and anything over Sea State 0.5 don’t mix well…”hover forever” was the preferred option. Wheels and brakes should at least figure in there somewhere. I’d rather thrash a 147F onto a ship than any skid-equipped helo. $0.02

 

[KevinB]

Either the 412 or 429 will be spicy! I’ve flown 135 and 146 from CCGS and RCN ships and let me tell you…skids and anything over Sea State 0.5 don’t mix well…”hover forever” was the preferred option. Wheels and brakes should at least figure in there somewhere. I’d rather thrash a 147F onto a ship than any skid-equipped helo. $0.02

Interesting - never considered the skid versus wheels aspect on that.
Little disconcerting considering how long some things with skids can skid on wet grass.

Maybe the Bell 525 would have been a better option.

Bell 525 - Applied technology serving the energy mission

The Bell 525 Relentless, featuring the ARC Horizon flight deck system, provides unparalleled crew situational awareness through the use of a fully integrated avionics flight deck coupled with an advanced fly-by-wire flight control system, resulting in enhanced safety levels and mission capabilities.

www.bellflight.com

 

[Kirkhill]

Either the 412 or 429 will be spicy! I’ve flown 135 and 146 from CCGS and RCN ships and let me tell you…skids and anything over Sea State 0.5 don’t mix well…”hover forever” was the preferred option. Wheels and brakes should at least figure in there somewhere. I’d rather thrash a 147F onto a ship than any skid-equipped helo. $0.02

How about skates instead of skids then? Isn't the probability of being iced up greater than that of finding a Sea State greater than 0.5 when up north?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

CCG went skids because of all the places they have to go and they run heli ops only when the weather is favourable. The 16 CCG machines have to cover both coasts year round and the North in the summer, I be surprised if the CCG can afford to lend more than one to the RCN. If the RCN asked TC to acquire 6 more 412's to fly off the AOP's that would be great, I suspect the 429 are more doable from a cost.

Atlantic Region
Seven Bell 429s are operated in: Stephenville, Newfoundland and Labrador (1), St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador (2), Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island (1), Halifax, Nova Scotia (2) and Saint John, New Brunswick (1).
Three Bell 412s are operated in Halifax (2) and St John's, Newfoundland (1).
Central/Arctic Region
Four Bell 429s operate in Quebec City, Quebec; 1 operates in Parry Sound, Ontario
Two Bell 412s are operated in Quebec City (1) and Parry Sound (1).
Western Region
Three Bell 429s operate in Victoria, British Columbia
Two Bell 412s operate from the Seal Cove Base in Prince Rupert, British Columbia. They replaced the two Bell 212s, that operated from Seal Cove Base, in 2017.

 

[Dale Denton]

Dump 148's at sea after stripping anything useful.
Move 149's to MH - buy lots more Hooks...

Paint first "new" -F yellow as SAR bird make lots of press.
buy remainder in Green

With SAR being proven so valuable, a beefing up of our rotary wing capability should be an easy win for the RCAF if they really pushed for it. Could help in SAR and be great for all the future LENTUS's (or Lentusi?)

How more valuable would another 2 squadrons of Chinooks be? Would be a boon for mobility as well, less reliance on griffons. Now would be a good time to push for a LPD/LPH that would've been able to be parked off Vancouver right about now.

Could pave the way to buy US concessions for EVs in the infrastructure bill for a full replacement of the Griffons with a Canadianized Bell V-280. We can jump in on the Blackhawk replacement this time, and from the get-go. FVL program should have legs, as long as they aren't outrageously expensive, CDN suppliers would have a lot to gain. What CDN gov't would care about the cost though, to curry favour with QC in Mirabel and Biden at the same time?