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Future Helicopters

Enterprise is a great thing.


LNjTtDW.jpg


The Helicopter.

A powerpack with stuff bolted on.
Looks like some industrious staff officers got a hold of some MOTS hardware from…CFD (the ‘plank’), GDAS (GAU-19 .50 Vulcan) and LMCO (AGM-114 Hellfire) to make a static proof of concept system-of-systems. They probably had the numbers worked out with BHTC to confirm the viability of the concept… 🤔
 
Looks like some industrious staff officers got a hold of some MOTS hardware from…CFD (the ‘plank’), GDAS (GAU-19/A .50 Vulcan) and LMCO (AGM-114 Hellfire) to make a static proof of concept system-of-systems. They probably had the numbers worked out with BHTC to confirm the viability of the concept…

All they needed to do next was head down to Radio Shack and by an RC kit, some servo motors and solenoids and they could ditch the crew as well.


MSME042G1S.jpg
53M5746-40.jpg


Then Kevin and his neat kit could ride in splendid isolation, unbothered by all that chatter from the front seats.
 
Enterprise is a great thing.


LNjTtDW.jpg


The Helicopter.

A powerpack with stuff bolted on.
The scares the bejesus out of me
It appears they have mounted a 25mm M242 Bushmaster cannon on that - and I can only imagine the damage to the airframe that will create.

-- the USMC literally ruined their UH-1N's with the M3 .50 (GAU-21) - as the airframe didn't react well to the recoil - and have since opted to keep that on the 53's and mostly go to 7.62 Miniguns on the Huey's -

The GAU-19 or Dillions lighter 503D seem to do better than the 21's - but I've only fired one of those on a GMVW -

Rockets and Missiles are significantly better tools for attack roles than a 25mm - and don't cause airframe damage - plus knowing what the recoil does to a LAV and Bradley - I can only wonder how a pilot could manage to keep that in the air -
 
Looks like some industrious staff officers got a hold of some MOTS hardware from…CFD (the ‘plank’), GDAS (GAU-19 .50 Vulcan) and LMCO (AGM-114 Hellfire) to make a static proof of concept system-of-systems. They probably had the numbers worked out with BHTC to confirm the viability of the concept… 🤔
Uhm - look at the M242 25mm Bushmaster Cannon...
 
The scares the bejesus out of me
It appears they have mounted a 25mm M242 Bushmaster cannon on that - and I can only imagine the damage to the airframe that will create.

-- the USMC literally ruined their UH-1N's with the M3 .50 (GAU-21) - as the airframe didn't react well to the recoil - and have since opted to keep that on the 53's and mostly go to 7.62 Miniguns on the Huey's -

The GAU-19 or Dillions lighter 503D seem to do better than the 21's - but I've only fired one of those on a GMVW -

Rockets and Missiles are significantly better tools for attack roles than a 25mm - and don't cause airframe damage - plus knowing what the recoil does to a LAV and Bradley - I can only wonder how a pilot could manage to keep that in the air -

I seem to recall a contributor called Loachman making as similar comment about the Minitat mounted on his Kiowa.

ch136.jpg


But Kev you are looking for the flyshit and ignoring the pepper.

Sure the collection of gear may be sub-optimal. So choose another toy instead. There's lots available. And it is easy to do.
 
I seem to recall a contributor called Loachman making as similar comment about the Minitat mounted on his Kiowa.

ch136.jpg


But Kev you are looking for the flyshit and ignoring the pepper.

Sure the collection of gear may be sub-optimal. So choose another toy instead. There's lots available. And it is easy to do.
The Griffon isn't a gunship.
It's a Bell 412 - it isn't hardened against enemy fire, or have multiple redundant systems as backups.

While I am impressed with the attempt to make a RCAF AH - I believe work could be better spent writing an actual requirement - with justifications that the Griffon isn't the appropriate platform, and showing both an operational and doctrinal need for a real escort AH, as well as support AH for other TacHel operations.

I'm not even a fan of the MH-60 DAP's - and I put the Little Bird into the wannabe AH category too - (and I love the LB's)

At some point in time you need to accept the fact that you really cannot make an AH out of a commercial helicopter.
 
And as for air frame stresses?

6 pdr / 57 mm anti-tank gun in a plywood aircraft built by piano makers.

CFImage209.jpg



Or even

Lockheed-AC-130U-1200x650.jpg


Enterprising Staff Officers.

To their good health! Slainte!
 
The Griffon isn't a gunship.
It's a Bell 412 - it isn't hardened against enemy fire, or have multiple redundant systems as backups.

While I am impressed with the attempt to make a RCAF AH - I believe work could be better spent writing an actual requirement - with justifications that the Griffon isn't the appropriate platform, and showing both an operational and doctrinal need for a real escort AH, as well as support AH for other TacHel operations.

I'm not even a fan of the MH-60 DAP's - and I put the Little Bird into the wannabe AH category too - (and I love the LB's)

At some point in time you need to accept the fact that you really cannot make an AH out of a commercial helicopter.


Why do I need to harden the vehicle if it has no crew? Why do I need redundancy, and the associated weight, if it is cheap enough that I can afford to build two very light machines?

Just take the existing Griffons, like the US took the existing Kiowas, remove the pilot, co-pilot, flight engineer and gunner, unbolt the armoured seats, remove the redundant systems and add a PLC some servo-motors and solenoids and a couple of cameras.

Who cares if the gun shakes the life out of the air frame. If you can get 5 missions out of it before spending the next couple of million, so what?
 
Why do I need to harden the vehicle if it has no crew? Why do I need redundancy, and the associated weight, if it is cheap enough that I can afford to build two very light machines?
Because you don't want it knocked out before it gets to its mission.

Just take the existing Griffons, like the US took the existing Kiowas, remove the pilot, co-pilot, flight engineer and gunner, unbolt the armoured seats, remove the redundant systems and add a PLC some servo-motors and solenoids and a couple of cameras.
Where then does Canada have TacHel mobility from?

Who cares if the gun shakes the life out of the air frame. If you can get 5 missions out of it before spending the next couple of million so what?
I can do the same thing with a few hundred dollar drone and a RC Claymore mine as payload.
 
This gets my vote for Ground support aircraft, I am not a soldier and it may not be the best for us but it is one BADASS plane!!!
It is a fantastic support AC for COIN/OOTW in the night time -- they don't fly during daylight though.
 
And as for air frame stresses?

6 pdr / 57 mm anti-tank gun in a plywood aircraft built by piano makers.

CFImage209.jpg

Planes don't equate to Helicopters @Good2Golf can explain them much better than I.
But a forward facing gun in an aircraft is directing its energy rearward agains the aircraft thrust - and can be affixed to the fuselage in a manner to spread out the load.
It is still significant thought - look at an A10 on a firing run - it causes massive decreases in airspeed

The Herc is a pretty large platform - apparently use of the 105mm still does cause issues over time.

I've been on MH-60's with the 7.62 M-134 Miniguns are cooking away - you know it - and I've been close enough to USMC N's with the M3 to see how it affects the airframe (they only mounted it on one side - so the pilot does lazy banked circles - and the recoil forces push "up").
 
Because you don't want it knocked out before it gets to its mission.


Where then does Canada have TacHel mobility from?


I can do the same thing with a few hundred dollar drone and a RC Claymore mine as payload.


Follow a Chinese lead.


Have Bell Textron churn out the cheapest, least survivable Griffon they can in large numbers.
Issue them to the existing TACHEL and CSS Squadrons.
Use them as utility transports until they are down to their last 100 hours of flying time.
Stick a plank and a PLC in them and mount whatever toys you like. Fill them with claymores if you think that would be a good thing.

Buy lots more cheap, disposable, attritable Griffons.

And buy a few expensive, hardened to within an ounce of their MTOW, aircraft as Command ships and as troop carrying assault craft.

Cats can be skinned many ways.
 
Follow a Chinese lead.


Have Bell Textron churn out the cheapest, least survivable Griffon they can in large numbers.
Issue them to the existing TACHEL and CSS Squadrons.
Use them as utility transports until they are down to their last 100 hours of flying time.
Stick a plank and a PLC in them and mount whatever toys you like. Fill them with claymores if you think that would be a good thing.

Buy lots more cheap, disposable, attritable Griffons.

And buy a few expensive, hardened to within an ounce of their MTOW, aircraft as Command ships and as troop carrying assault craft.

Cats can be skinned many ways.

That makes too much sense, we NEED a clean sheet design rotary wing UAV with all the latest tech and sensors to protect it from ever getting a scratch. ;)
 
Uhm - look at the M242 25mm Bushmaster Cannon...
I hear tell that CFD’s LR-30 (1:06 onwards) is a much better large calibre option than the M242. I think @Kirkhill may be able to dig up the photo of an LR-30 on a Griffon in place of the GAU-19. 😉

The GAU-19 is a beast, especially on high rate…and a better option for the airframe than the GAU-21 (M3M), IMO. Its recoil forces transmit through the OMS plank directly into the main structural longerons/stringers, as opposed to angularly through the DAS lugs which introduces tremendous torque moments with little dampening, which is where the Marines’ -1Ns had all the damage.
 
I hear tell that CFD’s LR-30 (1:06 onwards) is a much better large calibre option than the M242. I think @Kirkhill may be able to dig up the photo of an LR-30 on a Griffon in place of the GAU-19. 😉

The GAU-19 is a beast, especially on high rate…and a better option for the airframe than the GAU-21 (M3M), IMO. Its recoil forces transmit through the OMS plank directly into the main structural longerons/stringers, as opposed to angularly through the DAS lugs which introduces tremendous torque moments with little dampening, which is where the Marines’ -1Ns had all the damage.

Still looking for the photo. But came across this thread.

 
Follow a Chinese lead.


Have Bell Textron churn out the cheapest, least survivable Griffon they can in large numbers.
Issue them to the existing TACHEL and CSS Squadrons.
Use them as utility transports until they are down to their last 100 hours of flying time.
Stick a plank and a PLC in them and mount whatever toys you like. Fill them with claymores if you think that would be a good thing.

Buy lots more cheap, disposable, attritable Griffons.

And buy a few expensive, hardened to within an ounce of their MTOW, aircraft as Command ships and as troop carrying assault craft.

Cats can be skinned many ways.


Further to this silliness.


TypeOriginClassRoleIntroducedIn serviceTotalNotes
AgustaWestland CH-149 CormorantItaly/UKHelicopterSearch and Rescue (SAR)20001415An order for 50 EH-101 Merlin helicopters to serve in the anti-submarine role replacing CH-113 Labrador was cancelled in 1993. Nine VH-71 Kestrels were bought from the US in 2011 to be used for spare parts.[2] As of 2019, at least two additional Cormorants were to be purchased and the remaining 14 modernized,[3] but plan was delayed as of July 2021, as "unaffordable".[4]
Airbus CC-150 & CC-150T PolarisFranceJetTransport/tanker1992558 Wing Trenton - 2 transport; 2 tanker; 1 VIP
Airbus CC-295 KingfisherSpainPropellerSearch and rescue aircraft2019316Greenwood, Nova Scotia; Trenton, Ontario; Winnipeg, Manitoba and Comox, British Columbia (418 Search and Rescue Operational Training Squadron). The aircraft will be primarily operated at CFB Comox, where Airbus is building an RCAF Search & Rescue Training Facility for the CC-295
BAe CT-155 HawkUKJetTrainer2000162222 delivered to 419 sqn and 2 CFFTS[5]
Bell CH-139 Jet RangerUSHelicopterTrainer198213[6]13On contract from KF Defence Programs as trainers.
Bell CH-146 GriffonCanadaHelicopterTransport/SAR199585[7]10015 SAR and 85 tactical helicopters. Eight armed in 2009 to escort CH-147 Chinooks in Afghanistan. 9 B412CF Outlaw on contract from KF Defence Programs as trainers
Boeing CC-177 GlobemasterUSJetTransport200755At 8 Wing Trenton[8][9] Replaced contracted aircraft or assistance from allies.
Boeing CH-147F ChinookUSHelicopterTransport201315Previous D-model variants no longer in service.[10][11][12][13][14][15]
Bombardier CC-144 ChallengerCanadaJetTransport1982/2002/202044412(T) Sqn under 8 Wing Trenton, stationed at Ottawa Macdonald–Cartier International Airport. VIP and medevac transport.
Canadair CT-114 TutorCanadaJetAir demonstration196226[16]2624 used by "The Snowbirds"; replacement expected by 2020[17] (since delayed beyond 2021).
de Havilland Canada CC-115 BuffaloCanadaPropellerSAR19676442 Sqn 19 Wing Comox. To be retired and replaced by new FWSAR aircraft (EADS CASA C-295)[18]
de Havilland Canada CC-138 Twin OtterCanadaPropellerTransport/SAR1970s4440 Sqn Yellowknife attached to 17 Wing, Winnipeg.
de Havilland Canada CT-142CanadaPropellerTrainer19874402 Sqn 17 Wing, Winnipeg
Lockheed CC-130 HerculesUSPropellerTanker/SAR1964[19]128 Wing Trenton, 14 Wing Greenwood and 17 Wing Winnipeg.[20] 4 equipped for aerial refueling (CC-130HT, modified CC-130H); 8 SAR aircraft to be replaced by new FWSAR aircraft (EADS CASA C-295) from 2018-2022[18]
Lockheed CP-140M AuroraUSPropellerMaritime patrol/ASW/SAR19801418[21]14 being modernized and retained in operational status. 14 Wing Greenwood and 19 Wing Comox.
Lockheed CP-140A ArcturusUSPropellerTrainer/Maritime reconnaissance/SAR199113404 Sqn 14 Wing Greenwood.[22]
Lockheed Martin
CC-130J Super Hercules
USPropellerTransport20101717Replaced Lockheed CC-130 transport variants.
McDonnell Douglas CF-188A & BUSJetFighter/attack198276 [23]13898 A and 40 B models originally acquired. 20 lost to accidents, 41 retired. 3 Wing Bagotville and 4 Wing Cold Lake.[notes 1][24] 18 ex-Royal Australian Air Force F-18s being delivered as an interim measure, increasing the fighter fleet to 94 CF-18/F-18A aircraft.[25]
Beechcraft CT-156 Harvard IIUSPropellerTrainer2000242624 leased in 2000, 2 added in 2002.[26] Two lost in crashes.[27][28]
Sikorsky CH-148 CycloneUSHelicopterASW201523[29]28Replaced CH-124 [30] 23 helicopters in service as of May 2021.[29] One airframe (Stalker-22) lost to crash on operations.[31]
IAI CU-170 HeronCanadaUAVSurveillance and target acquisition201123
UMS CU-176 GargoyleCanadaUAVSurveillance and target acquisition2020


How many of those aircraft could be converted to "Optionally Manned" configurations?

Starting with the small stuff?

24x Harvard IIs? 26x Tutors? 16x Hawks? = 66 Fixed Wing

13x Jet Rangers? 100x Griffons? = 113 Rotary Wing

Autopilot + PLC + Smartphone + Servomotors + Solenoids? + FireScout and Loyal Wingman software licences?

179 Close Support UAVs that can also be used as Utility Trainers until they run down their clocks.

And, extending the thought further

84 to 156x Hornets = 84 to 156x Loyal Wingmen?

What does that do to the F-35 calculus? How many do we need to buy? How soon? And at what rate?

We need the F-35 but do we need 84 right away? Or do we need 4 squadrons of 10 immediately and an ongoing delivery? Continuous trickle of replacements? Or a couple of batches of 20 after 7 and 15 years?


FVZxSi0.jpg



We've already done it. Converting old fighters into drones. For target practice and as radar targets.

What does the used aircraft availability look like?

PS - ignore the guy in the cockpit. Surplus to requirement.
 
I hear tell that CFD’s LR-30 (1:06 onwards) is a much better large calibre option than the M242. I think @Kirkhill may be able to dig up the photo of an LR-30 on a Griffon in place of the GAU-19. 😉

The GAU-19 is a beast, especially on high rate…and a better option for the airframe than the GAU-21 (M3M), IMO. Its recoil forces transmit through the OMS plank directly into the main structural longerons/stringers, as opposed to angularly through the DAS lugs which introduces tremendous torque moments with little dampening, which is where the Marines’ -1Ns had all the damage.
This? Green. 401. At 1:34.

 
Further to this silliness.


TypeOriginClassRoleIntroducedIn serviceTotalNotes
AgustaWestland CH-149 CormorantItaly/UKHelicopterSearch and Rescue (SAR)20001415An order for 50 EH-101 Merlin helicopters to serve in the anti-submarine role replacing CH-113 Labrador was cancelled in 1993. Nine VH-71 Kestrels were bought from the US in 2011 to be used for spare parts.[2] As of 2019, at least two additional Cormorants were to be purchased and the remaining 14 modernized,[3] but plan was delayed as of July 2021, as "unaffordable".[4]
Airbus CC-150 & CC-150T PolarisFranceJetTransport/tanker1992558 Wing Trenton - 2 transport; 2 tanker; 1 VIP
Airbus CC-295 KingfisherSpainPropellerSearch and rescue aircraft2019316Greenwood, Nova Scotia; Trenton, Ontario; Winnipeg, Manitoba and Comox, British Columbia (418 Search and Rescue Operational Training Squadron). The aircraft will be primarily operated at CFB Comox, where Airbus is building an RCAF Search & Rescue Training Facility for the CC-295
BAe CT-155 HawkUKJetTrainer2000162222 delivered to 419 sqn and 2 CFFTS[5]
Bell CH-139 Jet RangerUSHelicopterTrainer198213[6]13On contract from KF Defence Programs as trainers.
Bell CH-146 GriffonCanadaHelicopterTransport/SAR199585[7]10015 SAR and 85 tactical helicopters. Eight armed in 2009 to escort CH-147 Chinooks in Afghanistan. 9 B412CF Outlaw on contract from KF Defence Programs as trainers
Boeing CC-177 GlobemasterUSJetTransport200755At 8 Wing Trenton[8][9] Replaced contracted aircraft or assistance from allies.
Boeing CH-147F ChinookUSHelicopterTransport201315Previous D-model variants no longer in service.[10][11][12][13][14][15]
Bombardier CC-144 ChallengerCanadaJetTransport1982/2002/202044412(T) Sqn under 8 Wing Trenton, stationed at Ottawa Macdonald–Cartier International Airport. VIP and medevac transport.
Canadair CT-114 TutorCanadaJetAir demonstration196226[16]2624 used by "The Snowbirds"; replacement expected by 2020[17] (since delayed beyond 2021).
de Havilland Canada CC-115 BuffaloCanadaPropellerSAR19676442 Sqn19 Wing Comox. To be retired and replaced by new FWSAR aircraft (EADS CASA C-295)[18]
de Havilland Canada CC-138 Twin OtterCanadaPropellerTransport/SAR1970s4440 SqnYellowknife attached to 17 Wing, Winnipeg.
de Havilland Canada CT-142CanadaPropellerTrainer19874402 Sqn17 Wing, Winnipeg
Lockheed CC-130 HerculesUSPropellerTanker/SAR1964[19]128 Wing Trenton, 14 Wing Greenwood and 17 Wing Winnipeg.[20] 4 equipped for aerial refueling (CC-130HT, modified CC-130H); 8 SAR aircraft to be replaced by new FWSAR aircraft (EADS CASA C-295) from 2018-2022[18]
Lockheed CP-140M AuroraUSPropellerMaritime patrol/ASW/SAR19801418[21]14 being modernized and retained in operational status. 14 Wing Greenwood and 19 Wing Comox.
Lockheed CP-140A ArcturusUSPropellerTrainer/Maritime reconnaissance/SAR199113404 Sqn14 Wing Greenwood.[22]
Lockheed Martin
CC-130J Super Hercules
USPropellerTransport20101717Replaced Lockheed CC-130 transport variants.
McDonnell Douglas CF-188A & BUSJetFighter/attack198276 [23]13898 A and 40 B models originally acquired. 20 lost to accidents, 41 retired. 3 Wing Bagotville and 4 Wing Cold Lake.[notes 1][24] 18 ex-Royal Australian Air Force F-18s being delivered as an interim measure, increasing the fighter fleet to 94 CF-18/F-18A aircraft.[25]
Beechcraft CT-156 Harvard IIUSPropellerTrainer2000242624 leased in 2000, 2 added in 2002.[26] Two lost in crashes.[27][28]
Sikorsky CH-148 CycloneUSHelicopterASW201523[29]28Replaced CH-124 [30] 23 helicopters in service as of May 2021.[29] One airframe (Stalker-22) lost to crash on operations.[31]
IAI CU-170 HeronCanadaUAVSurveillance and target acquisition201123
UMS CU-176 GargoyleCanadaUAVSurveillance and target acquisition2020


How many of those aircraft could be converted to "Optionally Manned" configurations?

Starting with the small stuff?

24x Harvard IIs? 26x Tutors? 16x Hawks? = 66 Fixed Wing

13x Jet Rangers? 100x Griffons? = 113 Rotary Wing

Autopilot + PLC + Smartphone + Servomotors + Solenoids? + FireScout and Loyal Wingman software licences?

179 Close Support UAVs that can also be used as Utility Trainers until they run down their clocks.

And, extending the thought further

84 to 156x Hornets = 84 to 156x Loyal Wingmen?

What does that do to the F-35 calculus? How many do we need to buy? How soon? And at what rate?

We need the F-35 but do we need 84 right away? Or do we need 4 squadrons of 10 immediately and an ongoing delivery? Continuous trickle of replacements? Or a couple of batches of 20 after 7 and 15 years?


FVZxSi0.jpg



We've already done it. Converting old fighters into drones. For target practice and as radar targets.

What does the used aircraft availability look like?

PS - ignore the guy in the cockpit. Surplus to requirement.


For that matter - why consider building 5000 hour airframes if airworthy 500 hour airframes can be built faster and cheaper. Keep them on local civilian sites for emergency call out so they maintain low hours. And convert them to drones when they start approaching their limits. Regularly buy replacements employing Quebec workers.

Related concept:


In the Just-In-Case inventory for 50 years.

The Green Goddess is the colloquial name for the RLHZ Self Propelled Pump manufactured by Bedford Vehicles, a fire engine used originally by the Auxiliary Fire Service (AFS), and latterly held in reserve by the Home Office until 2004, and available when required to deal with exceptional events,

Prior to disbandment, the AFS used the Green Goddess extensively in support of the local fire services throughout the UK. They provided additional water delivery and firefighting capability at times when the regular fire brigades had a major incident to contain. The ability to relay large quantities of water over considerable distances was invaluable in some more remote locations, or where the incident required more water than local water systems could provide. Most UK boroughs had an Auxiliary Fire Service detachment housed alongside the regular brigade equipment.

After 1968, the vehicles were mothballed, but occasionally used by the Armed Forces to provide fire cover in a number of fire strikes, notably in 1977 and 2002 (see UK firefighter dispute 2002–2003). They were also deployed to pump water in floods and droughts. They were well maintained in storage, and regularly road tested. There was a less significant strike by firefighters in the Winter of Discontent (late 1978 and early 1979), where once again the Green Goddesses were drafted in to cover; it is largely forgotten by many as it occurred at a time when a significant percentage of public sector workers were on strike.
 
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