FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[mariomike]

July 24, 2011
"Premier says unilateral privatization of search and rescue “not on”: Dunderdale was asked about the speculation the federal government will be looking at the hiring of private operators to provide air search and rescue services.":
http://www.thetelegram.com/News/Local/2011-07-24/article-2672613/Premier-says-unilateral-privatization-of-search-and-rescue-not-on/1

 

[Good2Golf]

July 24, 2011
"Premier says unilateral privatization of search and rescue “not on”: Dunderdale was asked about the speculation the federal government will be looking at the hiring of private operators to provide air search and rescue services.":
http://www.thetelegram.com/News/Local/2011-07-24/article-2672613/Premier-says-unilateral-privatization-of-search-and-rescue-not-on/1

And, before you have any consideration at all about changing the way you do this business, you come to Newfoundland and Labrador and you talk to the government of Newfoundland and Labrador and you talk to the people involved in this industry before you take any moves whatsoever,” Dunderdale said.

Wow, no arrogance there!  :

She appears not to understand the concept of ASD, that the capability is still provided.  If the federal government so chose to transfer the capability either to the Coast Guard or through contracting to provide the same (or better?) levels, then who are the provinces to tell the Feds how a federal service is provided?

Regards
G2G

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I suppose the Province is more than welcome to set up their own SAR service, if they feel we are so inept at it.

 

[Zoomie]

They pretty much have with Cougar and PAL.  The oil companies pay for their extended SAR coverage - it can be done but at what cost?  FWIW none of the FWSAR machines that PAL uses could do the job to the same degree (range, on station, loiter, etc) as the machines that currently do the job.  Civilians can step up, but they need to fly something bigger and better than a Dash 8.

 

[WingsofFury]

Civilians can step up, but they need to fly something bigger and better than a Dash 8.

I agree with you regarding the fact that civilians can step into the role if they fly something beefier than a Dash 8 (thinking that anyone who flies a Herc would be able to fulfill the role).

Found this on the Australian SAR page, and an fyi - there's some interesting reading to be found at the page linked below.

The cooperative nature of Search and Rescue in Australia is borne out by the involvement of volunteer rescue organisations. These organisations promote safety and conduct local rescues and come under the control of State/Territory Police for these operations. There are certain commercial and private organisations which are capable of providing assistance during a Search and Rescue incident. AusSAR provides specific training to selected aircraft operators, who are known as Search and Rescue Units (SRU). Aircraft and marine craft in transit may be able to assist in cases of distress within their area of operations. Other commercial and private organisations which might volunteer to assist in a Search and Rescue operation are: commercial airlines, general aviation operators, oil companies, fishing companies, aero clubs, and large landholders.

Reference:  http://www.amsa.gov.au/Search_and_Rescue/Search_and_Rescue_in_Australia/Arrangements_in_Australia.asp

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Civilians already do lot's of SAR, on land, water and air. Pretty well every time I am out in the North I hear of a rescue done with local resources. It's not uncommon for the local remote small town RCMP to call up a local helicopter company to assist in a rescue. Same up the coast. Not to diss Federal SAR resources, but the reality is the gaps are far and wide and locals often know they are on their own and act accordingly.

 

[benny88]

Civilians already do lot's of SAR, on land, water and air. Pretty well every time I am out in the North I hear of a rescue done with local resources. It's not uncommon for the local remote small town RCMP to call up a local helicopter company to assist in a rescue. Same up the coast. Not to diss Federal SAR resources, but the reality is the gaps are far and wide and locals often know they are on their own and act accordingly.

  Agreed, but you don't not have infantry battalions because mall cops keep busy stopping shoplifters. Those civilian SAR operators do important work, and frequently, but I'm not sure they will have the training/infrastructure/capabilities to handle a major incident. As (I think it was) kjgully said, they may be able to offer the same level of service, but who wants to be the ones to find out?

 

[Zoomie]

Not to diss Federal SAR resources, but the reality is the gaps are far and wide and locals often know they are on their own and act accordingly.

Not a "diss" at all.  While it may seem that you are on your own - who do you think chartered and paid for that local assets fuel, costs and salary?  Yup, the Federal Government did.  JRCC can and will task whatever unit/aircraft it has available.  If there weren't any locals around, the closest military/government asset would be making its way there.

 

[mariomike]

Some emergency services operate their own SAR. Toronto EMS, in partnership with Metro Police, operates a Marine Unit with a main station, and three substations.  Their operational jurisdiction is from the Etobicoke creek (Peel Region) to Rouge River (Durham Region) and extends 13 nautical miles to the US/Canada border. They are responsible for all waterways within Toronto, and approximately 460 square miles of open water on Lake Ontario. They operate a fleet of 15 boats.
The Marine Unit is responsible for all ice rescues, swift water rescue ( river rescues ), search and rescues, and other water related rescues within its jurisdiction.
Some of the mandatory courses for all members ( police and paramedics ) are Coxswain level 1, Husky Airboat Operation, Rigid Hull Inflatable Boat (RHIB),  Personal Watercraft, and, eventually, Master Mariner Certification.

The City of Toronto also operates Heavy Urban Search and Rescue HUSAR:
http://www.torontoems.ca/main-site/service/husar.html

 

[Colin Parkinson]

My point was that SAR currently exist on several levels already, DND, CCG, Provincial, municipal, volunteer and adhoc arrangements at local level. I fear this reality will be lost in any discussion, in particular the media  who (with a few notably exceptions) will go babbling about a subject they know nothing about.

I think using an open mind to address areas where there are gaps or resources are stretched thin is important. Building on local resources in remote areas can be good value for the money. The problem of course is we are now moving into an area that is mix of responsibilities which always makes it interesting

 

[Kirkhill]

  Agreed, but you don't not have infantry battalions because mall cops keep busy stopping shoplifters. Those civilian SAR operators do important work, and frequently, but I'm not sure they will have the training/infrastructure/capabilities to handle a major incident. As (I think it was) kjgully said, they may be able to offer the same level of service, but who wants to be the ones to find out?

That raises an interesting point.  Soldiers involved in Aid to the Civil Power are soldiers first (regardless of environment) that apply skills that are useful to the military to civilian situations.  CF SAR seems to be unique in that it is a permanently formed ACP capacity supplied out of the military budget.

Should the SAR capability be aligned primarily with the civil need or the military need?

That would seem to me to be at the heart of this discussion.  If the requirement is capable of being met with Beech Kings and S92s crewed by civilians then should the CF budget be tasked to the requirement.

On the other hand, if the CF needs an integral SAR capability (or transport capability or reconnaissance capabilty) that can be made available to the civil authority in extremis then that is another matter.

Rather than supplying equipment that is designed to operate in a civil environment would it be better to take that budget and apply it to military requirements to conduct reconnaissance (Search), infiltrate small bodies of troops (Rescue) and exfiltrate small bodies of troops and "refugees" (Recovery)?

That then drives the SOR on the equipment because SAR becomes a secondary task for a Military Asset rather than a primary task of a civil asset.  Would it have been better to buy additional Chinooks and paint yellow stripes on some of them rather than buying a dedicated SAR machine like the Cormorant?  Does the FWSAR platform have to be capable of operating overseas from rough strips or is it only necessary that it operate from civil hardstands within Canada?

My own inclination is to suggest that the military budget should be used to supply capabilities that benefit the military first.  If those capabilities can be employed to the benefit of the civil authority then they absolutely should be used. 

But one always needs to be careful about tails wagging dogs.

 

[Zoomie]

My own inclination is to suggest that the military budget should be used to supply capabilities that benefit the military first.

Be very careful what you wish for.  Do you really think that the CF will retain the sizeable chunk of its budget if it were to lose its SAR role?  Make no mistake, we are flying these aircraft and conducting these missions on a very tight budget tightrope.  If we cut the rope, the money goes to where ever we tie it off to next (ie civilians).  FWSAR/RWSAR provides an excellent source of highly trained and confident aviators - we fly operationally every day in challenging conditions.  These skills pay dividends when these aviators move on to instructing or flying combat missions into austere strips over "there".  The tangible costs/benefits associated with this role is huge.

 

[Kirkhill]

I see what you are saying Zoomie.  And I see the value of having the military conduct SAR ops for all the reasons that you state.

I was trying to suggest that the gear you guys are given to operate should first and foremost conform to military requirements and that those capabilities should be put to the use of the civil power as and when necessary.  I don't see, for example, any problem with a Combat SAR squadron, providing civil SAR coverage when necessary.  Equally I don't see any problem with Recce or Tpt assets being tasked when appropriate.  I do see a problem with buying platforms that can't be usefully employed in the more rugged military environment.  Equally I do see a problem when available platforms are under-utilized in the name of economy by not fully equipping them - here I'm thinking of not including sensors on transport and even SAR platforms when the sensors are relatively inexpensive and in common use on similar platforms by allies.

I am not advocating that the military disengage from SAR.  I am suggesting that military assets, and not civil assets crewed by military personnel, be assigned to backstop the National SAR system.

Apologies for the confusion.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

When the RCAF gave up it's Marine Search and Rescue branch, the whole thing was turned over to the newly formed Coast Guard, at Kits that included, base, boats, spare bits and almost all of the crew. That happened in 1964 if I recall correctly, so the transfer of SAR assets from the military to civilian use is not without precedent.

Still surprised that the Comox crashboats have never formally been tasked with a SAR role.

 

[Zoomie]

  I am suggesting that military assets, and not civil assets crewed by military personnel, be assigned to backstop the National SAR system.

<Click>  I read you five by five.  This is why we don't want a Bombardier Q-400.  We want a mil-spec transport aircraft that can carry NATO palletized loads and is a capable member of airlift.  Our current FWSAR very much have a transport role that is in current high demand.  We deploy our FWSAR to the high arctic and as far south as Mexico and places like Haiti (earthquake response was all SAR crews).  Having a robust machine is paramount for this role.

 

[The Bread Guy]

A bit of what was said after an "industry consultation day" today:

.... Since 2004, the government has been looking at replacing the ageing CC-115 Buffalo and the CC-130 Hercules aircraft, which have been central components in Canada's search and rescue system.

"Thorough consultation is necessary to fulfil the government's duty to ensure all options have been considered before any decision is made," said Chris McCluskey, a spokesman for Associate Defence Minister Julian Fantino.

Consultations between aerospace firms and government procurement officials took place in Gatineau, Que., on Tuesday.

Air Force vets are not fighting the move to outsource some of the work - they just want to see the project take flight.

"If industry is able to provide input that will get this moving, fine - love it," said retired Maj.-Gen. Marc Terreau. "The real, fundamental issue in search and rescue is human lives. Time is of the essence. The faster you get there, the higher the chances of people being rescued alive."

Former Canadian Air Force Cmdr. Lloyd Campbell says the Buffalo and the Hercules are at the end of their military lives and a new winger is urgently needed to tackle unique search and rescue demands in Canada, including the need to travel great distances in a short amount of time.

Toronto Sun, 16 Aug 11

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Ah! We'll have to re-educate the journalists all over again.

Obviously, the begining of the last paragraph of the quote should read: "Former Royal Canadian Air Force Cmdr. Lloyd Campbell says ..."

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Thoses advocating UAV for SAR should remember that UAV currently have difficulty flying in civilian airspace due to their lack of ablity to avoid other traffic. Apparently a C-130 and Reaper just had a collision in Afghanistan.

 

[dapaterson]

Ah! We'll have to re-educate the journalists all over again.

Obviously, the begining of the last paragraph of the quote should read: "Former Royal Canadian Air Force Cmdr. Lloyd Campbell says ..."

Not at all.  If his service was between '68 and '11, it's entirely possible that he never served with the RCAF.  Just like a sailor who served 1970-2005 never served with the RCN.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Here's the CF Info-Machine's version of the history of the project from a just-out Backgrounder:

The planning for this program has evolved. A Statement of Operational Requirements (SOR) was first developed in 2004 outlining the technical requirements for an aircraft to effectively carry out search and rescue missions in Canada’s harsh and vast environment.  In fall 2009, industry feedback was solicited on the high level considerations for the Fixed Wing Search and Rescue SOR. This consultation demonstrated the commitment to an open dialogue with Canadian industry and helped assess its ability to support the procurement of a new fleet. Following the industry consultation, the National Research Council (NRC) was engaged to conduct an independent review of the SOR. In its review, NRC focused on the technical requirements as well as the assumptions and constraints underlying them. The Government received the NRC report in March 2010 and then proceeded to review the report’s findings and recommendations. Based on the NRC review, the SOR has been amended to allow for a wider range of Fixed Wing Search and Rescue solutions and to reflect a capability-based rationale.