FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[SeaKingTacco]

Okay, I now i think i see what you are saying.

Can you explain why you think having civilian RWSAR would be a logistical and financial nightmare, if you acknowledge that in certain parts of the country, it appears to work better?

 

[Good2Golf]

Yes. That is exactly what Im saying.

To do National SAR?  I think you might be mistaken or misinformed. 

Ornge provides medical transport of patients identified through the ambulance dispatch service, not SAR serviced requested by JRCC Trenton. 

Unlike emergency medical service providers, Ornge is not accessible to the public through 911. The coordination of Ornge services is the responsibility of the Ornge Communications Centre (the OCC). The OCC provides communication services as defined in the Ambulance Act. When requested by local land ambulance dispatch centres, an Ornge helicopter will be deployed to respond to an accident or travel to a remote area, if the patient meets the established guidelines for transport.

Ornge does not have SAR Techs on board its helicopters either, it has Critical Care and Advance Care Flight Paramedics.

I'll confirm with a friend who is a Regional Director at Ornge what involvement they have regarding National SAR tasking, but the point remains, that outside of Zoomie's old haunts, the FWSAR requirement is even stronger than the Buff/Cormorant pairing.

Regards
G2G

 

[Zoomie]

This topic has taken on two separate but closely aligned services of the SAR system. MEDEVAC and SAR. Orange would most definiitely be tasked with conducting MEDEVAC of patients - as this is very much a provincial responsibility.  RWSAR assets would only be tasked if the provincial asset was unable to conduct the airlift.  I have worked with commercial helicopters on quite a few occasions when the situation warranted it.

 

[mariomike]

Ornge does not have SAR Techs on board its helicopters either, it has Critical Care and Advance Care Flight Paramedics.

They also have Primary Care Flight Paramedics:
http://www.ornge.ca/Careers/Pages/FlightParamedicThunderBayBase.aspx

 

[Good2Golf]

They also have Primary Care Flight Paramedics:
http://www.ornge.ca/Careers/Pages/FlightParamedicThunderBayBase.aspx

True, should have added those on as well as the default crewing.

Regards
G2G 

 

[aesop081]

I challenge anybody to gather up the mission reports from one unit and see how many of those missions were "stood down on route" due to some other resource arriving on scene first compared to how many were actually rescued by that unit.

You can scatter helos every 500 miles in this country and things like that will still happen. I've arrived on scene to a few incidents before dedicated SAR assets simply because i was airborne in the area on another task. That in itself is not an indication of a flawed system.

However if military SAR is going to stay relevant I personally believe it needs a serious rethinking.

Our SAR may be done by the military but it hardly "military SAR".

 

[aesop081]

Nope but if you look at the numbers the proof is in the pudding as they say.

Proof of what, exactly ? RCAF SAR was stood down because someone else got there first........what does that prove ? 15 people were rescued by logging helos and only 1 by RCAF SAR........what does that prove ?

Like i said, i showed up at an incident ( a sinking sail boat) before anyone else (despite being a 17 minute flight from a SAR base ) just because i was flying a previously scheduled training mission on a non-SAR aircraft, 2 minutes from the incident. Does me getting there first mean there is a flaw in the system ?

Numbers are often deceiving and only tell one part of the story.

going outside the box tends to ruffle feathers...

You won't ruffle mine, i have jack shyte to do with SAR.

 

[Good2Golf]

I am speaking from first hand experience, not from misinformation.

So you have a firsthand experience where Ornge was called by the JRCC to join a search?

The example you gave previously sounds like an Ornge helicopter that had been dispatched by the Provincial ambulance service to conduct medevac transportation, was extended for whatever reason on scene to a point where the crew were no longer able to fly out (not being NVG-equipped), hence the call for a 424 Sqn helo to come and evac all.  If that's not what happened, perhaps you could clarify your example and help us understand better?

Regards
G2G

 

[Zoomie]

It is the province's job to provide emergency services to their population.  If you get in a car accident  and call 911 - they will dispatch an ambulance to pick you up.  The province is then tasked with ensuring that you get to medical care - whether it be by ambulance or helicopter.  Ornge can be tasked through the ambulance network to pick up critically ill patients - anywhere in Ontario.  This can and will entail landing on roads, open fields, etc to evac that patient.  Do not mistake this for SAR.  Federal SAR is not in the business of ambulance driving - some times we are asked to provide such a service - this is always a last resort, as the province will end up paying for those services.  This is most likely what happened with your example of Ornge and the setting of the sun - the CF possessed the NVG hoist capability that was needed.

 

[Good2Golf]

...Anyways I am going to bow out of this thread as it's gotten away from the original point and going outside the box tends to ruffle feathers...

The thread was doing fine until someone suggested that new FWSAR wasn't required here.

 

[Civvymedic]

Interesting discussion. I work as an Advanced Care Paramedic in Ontario. I often call ORNGE for either an on scene response or a quick meet up at a helipad for a medevac. I really appreciate what SAR-Techs do and have on ocasion over the last 14 years had what I thought was a need for a SAR-Tech response from Trenton but when I asked was given ORNGE and/or the Police chopper via the Police on scene. A few years ago 424 Sqn held an info session and demo at CFB Trenton for EMS with the messsage being here is what we do, please call us when needed. In my experience we just call ORNGE and use the Police chopper for search. The SAR asests at Trenton I think could be better utilized at times but thats just my anecdotal opinion. On a side note ORNGE did just buy some large new choppers. AW 139's that we cant understand why they need. They have on ocasion had to circle around our scene to burn fuel so that they are not too heavy to land either on scene or at the hospital pad. I never saw that before with the old S-76. These new birds do have an all weather capability and I was told by a pilot last year that they were getting NVG's so they may be working with that now. Who knows where they are going with this...

 

[Civvymedic]

Ok, not to de-rail the thread even more but the examples I was thinking about were an injured hiker about 30 min into the forest, Ski-doo accident deep into the woods and an overturned boat in Lake Ontario in April with people in the water. The Police chopper flew cover and Police grabbed a boat from the marina for the last one. ORNGE did the first 2. I was thinking Trenton SAR but the answer was no.

 

[dapaterson]

Ideally, the CF should do only Combat SAR, and leave the rest to others.  It ties up military resources in a civilian role.  Good PR, yes, but not a core "defence of Canada" mission.

Frankly, if something can be done by civilians, it probably should be.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

dapaterson is precisely right.  If it does not involve putting "iron on a target", why is the military doing it (yes- I am aware of the history of SAR in Canada, back to 1946...)?

 

[aesop081]

haha guess I'm not getting out of this one that easy.

A good discussion, that is worth having, wont end like that. I dont agree with you but i still like what we are talking about.


CDN Aviator,

but in this case they lie in the sense that there are many, many more mission reports then actual people helped. You'd be very surprised.

No, i would not be. Although i have no link to the SAR community, i am "in the know" as it is (was) my secondary role. Irregardless, the number of missions compared to the number of people helped is not an indicator of success.

To me that scenario would prove that military SAR(in the sense that its run by the military and not civilians..this does not mean rescuing of military personnel, please PM for clarification) is not effective because logging helos are doing the rescuing...scratch that... how about extraction.

Again....so what ? If a logging helo is closer because of its operations, it does not mean a fail on the CF's part. You cannot be everywhere at once. As i have said, i have beat SAR to scenes of action simply because other work had me in that area.....by pure chance. That does not mean that 442 ( or other) could not have responded more than adequately. Stroke of luck meant i was already there.

 

[Kirkhill]

Canada is a strange place.

It is a massive country with a handful of pockets of population that approximate European densities.  Curiously most lost people get lost close to where there are people: Algonquin Park, the North Shore of Lake Huron, Georgia Straits,  off of Cap Chat.  In those places there are also lots of ways to rescue the poor drunken blighter that got himself lost on the backside of Cypress Mountain. 

Perhaps the RCAF isn't the best response, the necessary response, the only response in those areas and a Euro-style civvy solution is appropriate.  (Or dare I say even a Reserve solution - given that many of the SAR units seem to be manned by part-time civilian volunteers).

On the other hand there are whole chunks of Canada and its claimed water where there is nobody home at all and where even the prospect of being found and rescued in 72 hours would seem like a blessing compared to the alternative.

It seems to me that the domestic role of the CF, as I have said elsewhere, is to guard the spaces between the places.  The civvies are managing the places (the settlements) quite well.  The role of the CF, and principally the RCAF, is to bring the Government to those places the civvies ARE NOT (yet).  And once the Government arrives it can elect to help (SAR or Disaster Relief) or not (the other stuff that the military does).

If Southern Ontario and the Georgia Strait don't need Buffs, Hercs and Cormorants I am guessing that the Gulf of Alaska, Nunavut and the Atlantic fishing grounds wouldn't say no to more resources.  ???

 

[Zoomie]

In an effort to put this thread back on track - I submit to you an article outlining the CV-22 as a RWSAR and FWSAR replacement.

Best to read it here - it has a pretty picture

 

[Good2Golf]

In an effort to put this thread back on track - I submit to you an article outlining the CV-22 as a RWSAR and FWSAR replacement.

Best to read it here - it has a pretty picture

Imagine if Bell and Boeing agreed to do some manner of final assembly in Mirabel.


Regards
G2G

 

[Zoomie]

There are no ends to the industry spin offs that such a deal could produce. The entire sensor suite and back end equipment could be a made in Canada venture.  Third line maintenance out of Montreal will even keep the Bloc/NDP happy.

The only downside that I see if the inevitable mixing of helo and multi  pilots flying the machines. It would be like dogs and cats suddenly getting along -  :trainwreck:

 

[kj_gully]

Just to add more fuel, at the end of the day as it currently stands- any civilian based SAR/ Casevac has one last ditch "phone a friend" they can call on when things get hairy. One last ditch effort that spends exorbitant amounts of money to train for worst case scenarios that are rarely seen, but sometimes makes the news. once that is gone, there will be a reduction in service. Unlimited liability does not fit well with civilian employee insurance plans or OHS regulations, methinks...