FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[suffolkowner]

Looks like a repeat of the cyclone/cormorant

I wonder if the government just decided it couldn't afford the C-27?

 

[Blair Gilmore]

Actually, after discussing the issue with LGen(Ret'd) Lucas, the Spartan bid was the same as Airbus's. In fact, Airbus was allowed to overbid for the back end of the contract by $1.3B! That money might be part of the Defence spending that was pushed out by the Budget but Airbus shouldn't have been allowed to do that and still win the contract.

 

[suffolkowner]

Well I look forward to the increased transparency promised by the Liberals

 

[MarkOttawa]

As ever Jobs! Jobs! Jobs!

Industry offsets played key role in fixed-wing SAR award

Price may have been the determining factor in the selection of the C295W for Canada’s next fixed-wing search and rescue aircraft, but opportunities for Canadian companies in the Airbus Defence & Space supply chain were also critical to the successful bid.

The C295W edged out Leonardo’s C-27J in December for a $2.4 billion contract to provide the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) with 16 aircraft to replace aging CC-115 Buffalos and CC-130H Hercules, a new operational training centre, and an initial five years of in-service support. Options for an additional 15 years of maintenance and support services could bring the total contract value to $4.7 billion.

Both bids were deemed compliant, and the final decision ultimately “came down to price,” Judy Foote, Minister of Public Services and Procurement Canada, told Skies in an interview at the time.

However, proposals for industrial and technological benefits (ITBs), or offsets, for Canadian defence and aerospace companies received considerable weight in the final analysis, said Navdeep Bains, Minister of Innovation, Science and Economic Development (ISED), speaking in Montreal on April 3 during International Aerospace Week.

“Airbus won the competition in large part because its value proposition [VP] included strong partnerships with Canadian industry,” he said.

Bains noted the government’s relatively new VP requirement, which is tailored in consultation with prospective bidders for each major capital defence procurement, was purposely structured to take advantage of Canada’s commercial and defence technological strengths and “ensure the aircraft would be maintained in Canada by Canadians.”

...Bains and [John] MacInnis [deputy director of ITBs for ISED] pointed to Airbus partnerships with Pratt & Whitney Canada, CAE, Heroux-Devtek and Provincial (PAL) Aerospace as examples of what well-crafted ITBs can deliver. Airbus and Pratt & Whitney, for example, plan to develop a variant of the PW127G turboprop engine for Canadian and other C295 customers, while CAE is expected to build a “turnkey training solution” that could be exported.

And for ISS, Airbus and PAL have created AirPro, a Canadian company that could eventually provide ISS-related program management, engineering and other services to international fleets of C295 aircraft.

Both also emphasized that similar opportunities for small- and medium-sized businesses would be available under the CF-188 fighter jet replacement and interim F/A-18 Super Hornet acquisition projects.
https://www.skiesmag.com/news/industry-offsets-played-key-role-fixed-wing-sar-award/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I had a discussion very recently with a SAR Tech who has been in the 295, and talked with similar professionals from another/other country(s) that are using the 295 in a similar role.  The operators all basically say the same thing;  it sucks, it's not the right platform.  Everything from the potential to have to man-handle the loads of the aircraft if it goes U/S, to the power and icing issues, to increased risk of injury to the folks operating in and out of the back of these.  There will be a loss of flexibility in the way the A/C can be employed and there is concern from our SAR SMEs, even before the first a/c is even close to be handing over, on this platform.

I can't remember which AF the SAR Tech I was talking to said he'd done some cross training with, but the main point was the plane was the shits for SAR.  However, this SAR Techs informed opinion was something like the Herc J with the right sensors and operators on board would be the best single platform to replace the current ones.  There was also some head shaking over not having the RCAFs dedicated Sensor Operator trade not IDd as part of the crew.

 

[jmt18325]

A J Herc would seem to have been the best - too bad they didn't bid.

 

[dimsum]

As ever Jobs! Jobs! Jobs!

Mark
Ottawa

If, god forbid, one goes down and there are casualties/fatalities, imagine the public outcry of "how dare the RCAF buy inferior equipment!" 

 

[jmt18325]

If, god forbid, one goes down and there are casualties/fatalities, imagine the public outcry of "how dare the RCAF buy inferior equipment!"

I don't know that it's inferior in that it's unsafe to fly - it's simply that in a perfect world, there were probably better aircraft.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

*Not good in icing* + Canadian SAR Regions = .............

Ice can make things go REALLY bad for a crew and their ride.

 

[jmt18325]

*Not good in icing* + Canadian SAR Regions = .............

Ice can make things go REALLY bad for a crew and their ride.

I've been looking for some kind of source for those issues - so far, nothing.  I'd be interested in seeing the information. 

 

[YZT580]

Try this.  http://www.baaa-acro.com/2012/archives/crash-of-a-casa-c-295m-in-mende-6-killed/  and that was over the Med.  now try Atlantic Canada or even around Toronto

 

[suffolkowner]

Try this.  http://www.baaa-acro.com/2012/archives/crash-of-a-casa-c-295m-in-mende-6-killed/  and that was over the Med.  now try Atlantic Canada or even around Toronto

That's a little disconcerting to say the least. I would definitely like more information on how the decision was made. Is the FWSAR the first project to go through the new acquisition process, or maybe MSVS-SMP?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

As I understand the issue, they can deice or run the equipment in the back, but not both, I suspect if I am wrong I will be shortly corrected here.  :nod:

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Try this.  http://www.baaa-acro.com/2012/archives/crash-of-a-casa-c-295m-in-mende-6-killed/  and that was over the Med.  now try Atlantic Canada or even around Toronto

Anywhere, really.  You have to content with Wx from homeplate to the Op area, and back or to an Alt.  It might be really sunny and awesome where you take off, but that is rarely the same place you're operating.  Not many things really scare the crap out of me about flying;  fire and (bad) icing are 2 of them.  Honourable mention goes to losing RADAR at night/in IMC with thunderstorms and stuff kicking about.

I am not sure about the limitations of the 295 to de-ice and run mission systems, but personally I don't like the idea of having to pick between to *fly blind or de-ice*.  RADAR is usually a go/no-go item if Wx is expected.  So is de-icing equip. 

 

[Kirkhill]

One of my more memorable flights - and I have had a couple - was as a passenger in a DASH 8 sitting beside the props climbing out through an ice-cloud,  and suddenly wondering where that machine gun was.  Disconcerting when the props start flinging chunks of ice up against the fuselage on which you are leaning.

 

[Loachman]

IMC

For those unaware, IMC is Instrument Meteorological Conditions, ie "can't see nuffin".

 

[SeaKingTacco]

One of my more memorable flights - and I have had a couple - was as a passenger in a DASH 8 sitting beside the props climbing out through an ice-cloud,  and suddenly wondering where that machine gun was.  Disconcerting when the props start flinging chunks of ice up against the fuselage on which you are leaning.

There is a protective shield or patch on the Dash-8 fuselage right abeam the propeller to protect the skin of the aircraft for damage caused by ice shedding from the propellers.

 

[Kirkhill]

There is a protective shield or patch on the Dash-8 fuselage right abeam the propeller to protect the skin of the aircraft for damage caused by ice shedding from the propellers.

Thanks.  I wish you had been there to hold my hand at the time.  ;D

 

[suffolkowner]

As I understand the issue, they can deice or run the equipment in the back, but not both, I suspect if I am wrong I will be shortly corrected here.  :nod:

This is because of the lack of APU noted in the happydiver posts?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I think so, but not sure