Gaelic irish warfare

[sean m]

Hello everyone,

Considering that Gaelic Ireland was known as a place of great knowlede and had a well developed society. The art of warfare was considerably less developed. It would seem that the accounts state the use most sucessful against the British seems to have been guerilla warfare. Would anyone here know why the Gaelic manner of conducting warfare was so lacking even though the area had considerable interaction with the outside world :rage:

 

[medicineman]

Just because  :dunno:?

Could be the guerilla mentality was there because, to be blunt, who the (add you own expletive) would want to take over Eire in the first place?  Well, other than the British, who I suppose were/are used to the general dreariness of the place of course...

MM

 

[Old Sweat]

As luck would have it, I am reading a study of North American wars between the Colonists and the Natives in the period 1675-1815. Part of this study discussed the Elizabethan conquest of Ireland and its similarities and differences with the early years of warfare in New England. Gaelic Ireland was a Celtic tribal society and their way of war did not necessarily lend itself to classic military formations and maneuver. Think impulsive charges by an armed mob. If surprise can be achieved or a conventional force attacked on march, more often that not, the Irish would prevail.

However, the English eventually succeeded by what we would recognize as counter-insurgency tactics, although it was also used in conquering areas and populations that did not have more than a basic agricultural economy. These tactics included:

a. exploiting clan rivalries;

b. gaining control over the Irish source of supplies;*

c. adapting to local conditions; and

d. eventually wearing down the defenders.

* This could be include brutal scorched earth tactics.

 

[irish]

who the (add you own expletive) would want to take over Eire in the first place

what the fudge is that supposed to mean ... that dreary auld place has bred some hardened souls ye' know 

I think Old Sweat nails it for the most part. However, understanding a centuries old conflict like this requires a deeper look at the very intimate connections between all those within the British Isles (why does that still sting when I say it), the subtle differences between Gaelic and Celtic culture/tribes and the plantation of British citizens in Ireland (ever wonder why a Belfast accent sounds like a Scottish accent).
There are characters that stand out and helped unify struggles, whether it was against the Brits or not - the pirate queen Grainne Mhaol (Grace O'Malley), Brian Boru, etc.
Dig a little deeper.

 

[Old Sweat]

Agreed. For the most part I was referring to the sixteenth century and a bit of the seventeenth. There were previous Norman (any name that starts with Fitz had its roots in Norman England) and latter incursions over the centuries up and into the Tudors. There also was a lot of subseqent settlement of Ulster, especially by Protestant Scots. These "Scotch-Irish" later settled much of Appalachia and some authorities say they made up a large part of the Confederate army.

The story is too complex to handle in short posts here. Suffice to say it is not a pleasant subject.

 

[medicineman]

what the fudge is that supposed to mean ... that dreary auld place has bred some hardened souls ye' know 

Including some of my ancestors, and a few of my favorite beverages...

I think OS has kind of nailed things - it would be a whole pile of things that are hard to be expounded upon here...and we're not going to write your history paper for you there master m  .

MM

 

[Edward Campbell]

Plus, you need to go back well before the Tudors, who, in a way, reconquored Ireland. The Anglo-Scots colonization of Ireland goes back to the time of Henry II.

 

[vonGarvin]

Dont' forget that the Celts used to be in Central Europe, and were gradually pushed north and west over the centuries. 

 

[OldSolduer]

Irish whisky might have something to do with that

 

[Kirkhill]

The Anglo-Scots Domination of Ireland?

How about Clan Diarmid's Domination of Pictland Campbell?

Jings, ye pick a fight then complain whan the other yin tries to mak guid thir losses.  ;D

The boats have always run both ways between Larne and Stranraer.

And as for those Ulster Scots Plantations - ask the Grahams, good reivers that they were, how many of them volunteered for the trip and how many of them were sent over the water by Jimmy Stewart the Saxt.

 

[AJFitzpatrick]

(any name that starts with Fitz had its roots in Norman England) ..

Have to point out that this is not the case for Fitzpatrick. It was orginally MacGiolaPadraig (from which the less common McGillPatrick) but got changed to Fitzpatrick so as to appear to be Norman. And to further confuse things the Normans descended from Vikings.

Now if we can only get agreement on how to spell whiskey.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Hello everyone,

Considering that Gaelic Ireland was known as a place of great knowlede and had a well developed society. The art of warfare was considerably less developed. It would seem that the accounts state the use most sucessful against the British seems to have been guerilla warfare. Would anyone here know why the Gaelic manner of conducting warfare was so lacking even though the area had considerable interaction with the outside world :rage:

Can you clarify what period is the "Gaelic Irish"?

dileas

tess

 

[Edward Campbell]

Have to point out that this is not the case for Fitzpatrick. It was orginally MacGiolaPadraig (from which the less common McGillPatrick) but got changed to Fitzpatrick so as to appear to be Norman. And to further confuse things the Normans descended from Vikings.

Now if we can only get agreement on how to spell whiskey.

All civilized people do agree on how to spell whisky. 

 

[OldSolduer]

All civilized people do agree on how to spell whisky. 

Then I'm a heathen barbarian.......like my ancestors...

 

[medicineman]

All civilized people do agree on how to spell whisky. 

Yes we can...J-A-M-E-S-O-N.

Now back to sean m's history paper.

MM

 

[OldSolduer]

I think your spelling is wrong.

JACK DANIELS  is the proper spelling for whisky

 

[Journeyman]

JACK DANIELS  is the proper spelling for whisky

              :goodpost:

 

[PMedMoe]

I think your spelling is wrong.

JACK DANIELS  is the proper spelling for whiskey

TFTFY. 

 

[Journeyman]

    :facepalm:


Besides, it's like Zen; it's not what's on the outside label, it's what is within that's valued 

 

[sean m]

Haha sorry gentlemen, about the confusion. If whiskey is a more argued topic, hopefully we can agree on the fact that irish beer especially Harp is the best from all Western Europe. haha.

Thank you Mr. Old Sweat and Mr. Irish and Mr. Campbell and Mr. Technoviking and others for your information.

@ Mr. Tess the date would be up until 1607 AD.

Yet in regards to celtic warfare, it seems that the Scottish had more sucess which is odd since both peoples are celtic. Also the Irish set up colonies in Scotland in fact Scotland derives from the term "scotti" who were a people from Ireland! Score one for the paddies haha ;D.

The only king to have united Ireland, and a more united army (even though there was still difficult in this regard) was Brian Boru.

It seems that guerilla warfare had continued until this very day, being the Irish Republican Army. The gaelic irish warfare seemed to have derived from mainly it and run raids, never atttacks with sustained occupation. Yet even due to this fact, as the Irish traveled and experienced different cultures, why the did not adapt military techniques. They were more than intelligent enough since they were the only people in Western Europe who spoke Latin in court.