Getting the "government" We Deserve

[Fry]

Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle. Read it... interesting indeed.

 

[48Highlander]

Why not? You're very good at it....

Thanks   Most of the time I'm not trying to be.  I still respect the opinions and experience of the majority of the members here, even when I'm certain they're wrong

 

[Wayne Coady]

There is an undercurrent of thought among Canadians who, as they observe and examine how the present political system operates in this country, have concluded we must regain control of our government. This is a government that, at all levels, has increasingly become populated by professionals who have joined the political parties that have usurped what once was government for and by the people.

The professionals I refer to are the lawyers and doctors who have joined the professional politicians whose aim is to establish tenure for themselves and, in some instances, their progeny. The motivating force behind these dynasties has to be the money, power and perks that accrue as one becomes entrenched within the system.

Unfortunately for he rest of us, our governments have become out of touch and unresponsive to the real needs of the people.

These â Å“professionalâ ? politicians have assessed their own worth  through so called independent advisors( usually ex-politicians or those closely involved with political parties ) and pay themselves very well indeed ~ compared to most of the working people who are expected to foot the bill.
And why not ?  Lawyers come from a profession that has been granted the right to police its members ( Barrister's Society ) and similar privileges are extended to inoculate medical doctors from censure by any means other than the College of Physicians and Surgeons.

All very tidy and protective. Even the most blatant examples of abuse by erring members of these professions have gone unpunished ~ or, with the proverbial â Å“slap on the wristâ ?.

Those of you here who would disagree that the public perception is wrong are, yet again, demonstrating just how â Å“out of touchâ ? you really are. I would remind you that the former tenants in  the Palace of Versailles and the royals of Czarist Russia held similar attitudes many years ago and reaped the whirlwind when their subjects ceased to believe or be intimidated by the myth.

In this country(Canada) today, the myth is promulgated and perpetuated that there is good government .

Good for whom?  Mostly for the professionals and their professional societies that have been granted the right to administer their own law as it pertains to their profession. Who granted that right?  Answer: Government, through legislative action by its members. Who are those members? Many come from the membership rolls of the very same societies who benefit from  their protective legislation . Proving again that, in some instances, â Å“incest IS bestâ ?.

Further, professionals are largely responsible for these â Å“governmentsâ ?  and should be well-paid ( at a commensurate level )for their input. This in a country that has in excess of  Billion dollars in debt and an infrastructure that is on a downward spiral because of politicians and governments whose vision was restricted by politics and the inability to see beyond the tip of their nose.

No wonder governments in this country have been chastised for operating in SECRECY !  When you continually grow debt, provide poorly considered legislation and only a reactive response in crises, I guess you really don't want the world ( and certainly, the electorate ) to know just how poorly equipped you REALLY are at governing.

The highly deserving and august professionals I refer to are, ostensibly, theâ ? cream of the cropâ ? ~ lawyers and doctors trained to the nth degree in the intricacies of your professions but without , one must suspect, of never having been exposed to the nuances of morals, ethics and, particularly, empathy as they made their way through university.

The public perception, I'm sure , is that all of you professionals should be more than capable of shouldering the responsibilities inherent in government ~ but they have unfailingly demonstrated the opposite time and again by the results.
They are probably one of the best illustrations of that old saw, â Å“ The Ark was built by an amateur but, .... the TITANIC was built by professionals !â ?

This country slowly  goes under as the rest of us continue to endure under the bad faith legislation you â Å“ professional politicians â Å“ have enacted in their half-hearted attempt to justify the raises they eagerly take for themselves as often as possible.

Considering all the training these professionals have undergone, I can't believe any of them would stoop so low as to cheat on those courses you took that culminated in your being granted degrees.

That said, I can only conclude that the bad faith legislation they were either a party to or tacitly endorse today, is not the result of a mistake or any error in judgement. No ~ this legislation was maliciously calculated to confuse and confound we citizens ~  who have been forced to rely on the "government".

I can only hope that when the next election is called, that we are all wise enough to not support or vote for a candidate who represents a political party. 

 

[atticus]

The "Ideal" of communism is a fable, a bedtime story for statists with totalitarian dreams. I believe it can and never will be realized. In order to construct a communist state you have to have complete and utter control. Any such control must be exercised by someone, the Communist ideology did not do away with classes it created a new ruling class, the apparatchik which replaced the Bourgeoisie. Therefore I put Communism in the same class, and light as Anarchism. It will never work in the real world.

Acually its quite true that if the world was perfect and no man had greed communism would probably work. Its doubtful that it would ever work as it should though. If you look at China it's somewhat working (though whats with the free markets spotted all over? I guess they figured out free markets make more money than one with a heavy collar on it).

 

[Cloud Cover]

There is an undercurrent of thought among Canadians who, as they observe and examine how the present political system operates in this country, have concluded we must regain control of our government. This is a government that, at all levels, has increasingly become populated by professionals who have joined the political parties that have usurped what once was government for and by the people.

The professionals I refer to are the lawyers and doctors who have joined the professional politicians whose aim is to establish tenure for themselves and, in some instances, their progeny. The motivating force behind these dynasties has to be the money, power and perks that accrue as one becomes entrenched within the system.

Unfortunately for he rest of us, our governments have become out of touch and unresponsive to the real needs of the people.

These â Å“professionalâ ? politicians have assessed their own worth    through so called independent advisors( usually ex-politicians or those closely involved with political parties ) and pay themselves very well indeed ~ compared to most of the working people who are expected to foot the bill.
And why not ?   Lawyers come from a profession that has been granted the right to police its members ( Barrister's Society ) and similar privileges are extended to inoculate medical doctors from censure by any means other than the College of Physicians and Surgeons.

All very tidy and protective. Even the most blatant examples of abuse by erring members of these professions have gone unpunished ~ or, with the proverbial â Å“slap on the wristâ ?.

Those of you here who would disagree that the public perception is wrong are, yet again, demonstrating just how â Å“out of touchâ ? you really are. I would remind you that the former tenants in   the Palace of Versailles and the royals of Czarist Russia held similar attitudes many years ago and reaped the whirlwind when their subjects ceased to believe or be intimidated by the myth.

In this country(Canada) today, the myth is promulgated and perpetuated that there is good government .

Good for whom?    Mostly for the professionals and their professional societies that have been granted the right to administer their own law as it pertains to their profession. Who granted that right?    Answer: Government, through legislative action by its members. Who are those members? Many come from the membership rolls of the very same societies who benefit from   their protective legislation . Proving again that, in some instances, â Å“incest IS bestâ ?.

Further, professionals are largely responsible for these â Å“governmentsâ ?   and should be well-paid ( at a commensurate level )for their input. This in a country that has in excess of   Billion dollars in debt and an infrastructure that is on a downward spiral because of politicians and governments whose vision was restricted by politics and the inability to see beyond the tip of their nose.

No wonder governments in this country have been chastised for operating in SECRECY !   When you continually grow debt, provide poorly considered legislation and only a reactive response in crises, I guess you really don't want the world ( and certainly, the electorate ) to know just how poorly equipped you REALLY are at governing.

The highly deserving and august professionals I refer to are, ostensibly, theâ ? cream of the cropâ ? ~ lawyers and doctors trained to the nth degree in the intricacies of your professions but without , one must suspect, of never having been exposed to the nuances of morals, ethics and, particularly, empathy as they made their way through university.

The public perception, I'm sure , is that all of you professionals should be more than capable of shouldering the responsibilities inherent in government ~ but they have unfailingly demonstrated the opposite time and again by the results.
They are probably one of the best illustrations of that old saw, â Å“ The Ark was built by an amateur but, .... the TITANIC was built by professionals !â ?

This country slowly   goes under as the rest of us continue to endure under the bad faith legislation you â Å“ professional politicians â Å“ have enacted in their half-hearted attempt to justify the raises they eagerly take for themselves as often as possible.

Considering all the training these professionals have undergone, I can't believe any of them would stoop so low as to cheat on those courses you took that culminated in your being granted degrees.

That said, I can only conclude that the bad faith legislation they were either a party to or tacitly endorse today, is not the result of a mistake or any error in judgement. No ~ this legislation was maliciously calculated to confuse and confound we citizens ~   who have been forced to rely on the "government".

I can only hope that when the next election is called, that we are all wise enough to not support or vote for a candidate who represents a political party.  

As a lawyer, I must say that I respect and support your right to freedom of political thought, political speech and expression. Hell, for $200 an hour I'll even make sure nobody interferes with you while you are doing it. That's my good natured side.

Rant on:

My off tempered side wants to grab you by the shoulders and in a purely literary sense throw you roughly to the ground. I won't kick you in the balls because you probably don't have any, so I'll simply hold my foot to your neck. 

I started to respond to your post on a point by point basis, but your irrational loathing, hatred and contempt for lawyers and doctors are obviously masking what must surely be an outstanding example of a neurotic, psychopathic, tripe spewing idiot. I bet when somebody finally belts you in the mouth, the first thing you will do after your privilged doctor patches you up is call a lawyer to sue the person who finally couldn't stand to hear you anymore. After that, you will probably call the police to enforce one of those awful criminal code laws put in place by the state to protect only the priviliged. Unless of course they all band together in a conspiracy to oppress you even further.

Rant off.

Have a nice day Mr. Coady, and be sure to call a lawyer when your world comes crumbling down.

 

[a_majoor]

For a number of years, the City of London has been vying for the new Shriner's Children's Hospital, a bid that was finally quashed today by the Shriner's voting to keep it in Montreal.

I am actually relieved, since the City and the Province of Ontario were promising to fork over thousands if not  millions of tax dollars, money to entice a wealthy private interest group. It was revealed at the last minute that the local politicians had planned in secret to add yet another $300,000 to the pot in order to sway the vote at the Shriner's convention in Baltimore.

We managed to avoid a tax hit, but the revelation of City Council secretly spending more tax dollars is just an indication of how far the rot is spreading. Hasn't ADSCAM taught us anything? (I suppose not, after all, Shawinigate, the Gun Registry, the Billion Dollar Boondoggle, Flagscam, Paul Martin's Private Doctor etc. etc. haven't taught us anything, so why should this?).

I plan to add this little tid bit in my campaign.

 

[Infanteer]

This is a government that, at all levels, has increasingly become populated by professionals who have joined the political parties that have usurped what once was government for and by the people.

Ever hear of the Family Compact and the Chateau Clique?   I'm trying to figure out when this usurpation happened, but I can't.

Maybe you are confusing "for and by the people" with the United States - but then again, it was liberated by slave owning aristocrats.

Cheers,
Infanteer the Cynic

 

[Wayne Coady]

As a lawyer, I must say that I respect and support your right to freedom of political thought, political speech and expression. heck, for $200 an hour I'll even make sure nobody interferes with you while you are doing it. That's my good natured side.

Rant on:

My off tempered side wants to grab you by the shoulders and in a purely literary sense throw you roughly to the ground. I won't kick you in the balls because you probably don't have any, so I'll simply hold my foot to your neck.  

I started to respond to your post on a point by point basis, but your irrational loathing, hatred and contempt for lawyers and doctors are obviously masking what must surely be an outstanding example of a neurotic, psychopathic, tripe spewing idiot. I bet when somebody finally belts you in the mouth, the first thing you will do after your privilged doctor patches you up is call a lawyer to sue the person who finally couldn't stand to hear you anymore. After that, you will probably call the police to enforce one of those awful criminal code laws put in place by the state to protect only the priviliged. Unless of course they all band together in a conspiracy to oppress you even further.

Rant off.

Have a nice day Mr. Coady, and be sure to call a lawyer when your world comes crumbling down.

Well talking about balls whiskey 601, and who has them,remember I post in my real name and as for you being a lawyer if the boot fits then put it on.
All one need to do is look at the number of lawyers who have sat in the Prime Minister seat in Ottawa, to understand why it is that this country is so messed up. I wonder how much of "our" tax dollars goes into the pockets of the legal community?
Here in Nova Scotia I have had a Lawyer or a doctor as my Priemier for 48 of the 57 years I been on this earth, and they sure as heck haven't been doing such a good job or we be in better shape.

Just look at this ad scandal, it was set up my a former lawyer, Jean Chetian and the cost to discover that we the taxpayer were screwed by a llawyeris well over 80 million and guess who is pocketing those dollars, you got it lawyers
Then the 'government' will go to court to get back the millions that were stolen and the legal cost will once again out weigh the loss, you got it, the lawyers get to pocket even more of our tax dollars.  
So, my friend I say if a lawyer runs in the next election, he can run , but we will be fools to vote for him or her.
Wayne Coady Dartmouth Nova Scotia,902-434-9306 here are my balls where are yours.

I really think it is time to cut back on   the white collar professionals in politics, we need a little more down to earth thinkers heading up our country. Lawyer we all know make money on arguments and thus when they get any where near being in position of drafting legislation, we all end up in an argument and we all know who benefits from that don't we?
Now we those of us who trained at Base Gagetown are faced with this agent orange/ purple /white and just how many of those Prime Minister and Premiers of the day were Lawyers who let this happen?

I can go on and on about lawyers but then again we all know how low on the rector scale of life they are. So, lets not let the legal community high-jack our "government" from us in the next election, lets send them packing.

 

[2 Cdo]

Wayne couldn't have said it better. ;D

 

[Wayne Coady]

Acually its quite true that if the world was perfect and no man had greed communism would probably work. Its doubtful that it would ever work as it should though. If you look at China it's somewhat working (though whats with the free markets spotted all over? I guess they figured out free markets make more money than one with a heavy collar on it).

Atticus: Where have you seen signs of a freemarket system here in Canada or China? When you see larger corporation lobbying "government" to put in place legislation / regulations that only they can do business under and forcing the small mom and pop business out, surely this is not what you call a "freemarket model ". No Atticus, here in Canada we do not have a freemarket system, we do not live in a true democracy, we live in a society controlled by the few and that my friend is an "OLICHACHY" .

 

[TCBF]

Whiskey 601 wrote:

"I started to respond to your post on a point by point basis, but your irrational loathing, hatred and contempt for lawyers and doctors are obviously masking what must surely be an outstanding example of a neurotic, psychopathic, tripe spewing idiot. I bet when somebody finally belts you in the mouth, the first thing you will do after your privileged doctor patches you up is call a lawyer to sue the person who finally couldn't stand to hear you anymore. After that, you will probably call the police to enforce one of those awful criminal code laws put in place by the state to protect only the privileged. Unless of course they all band together in a conspiracy to oppress you even further.

Rant off."

- Actually, Whiskey 601, the only irrational loathing here is in your posts.  You appear to be attacking the messenger - rather than his message.  A semi-literate track-thug like myself can occasionally be expected to do such a thing, but  I would assume our various and sundry law societies frown on you doing it.  He gave you a politely worded critique that you could have leisurely disassembled if you had chosen to do so.  You chose instead to attack him - a universal admission of defeat in a discussion.  In effect, you proved his point.  Many so-called professionals are incapable of controlling our government because they are incapable of controlling themselves.  Had you posted the above in a Cadet Forum, Mr. Burrows may well have deposited a European traffic sign by your name.

Oh well, better here than in a courtroom - or a bar - I suppose.  You do have an opportunity to calm down and speak up for your profession.  This site is chock-a block full of mal-educated soldiers patiently standing up for the profession of arms in a public forum, you can do so for the profession of law, if you so wish.

Tom

 

[Infanteer]

Actually, I think it is fair to say that Representative Democracy is an Oligarchy - with one key difference; the US Declaration of Independence points it out with:

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

Notice the emphasis - there was no hijacking.   Mr Coady is correct to point out that a disparate number of our politicians have been Lawyers from Quebec (the last 4 Prime Minsters were), but the only reason this is a fact is because we, the vox populi, gave them the consent to govern.

So, the long term answer, IMHO, is more direct democracy (I like the idea of the Athenian Lot) - the short term answer is probably for Mr Coady to quit harping at an entire class of people (remember, painting with a broad brush isn't a good thing - not all soldiers are baby-killers) and to get involved with politics, saving us from the scourge of white-collar obfuscation.... ^-^

 

[paracowboy]

I'll toss my hat into Mr Coady's corner as well. I agree with a lot of his post.

 

[atticus]

Atticus: Where have you seen signs of a freemarket system here in Canada or China? When you see larger corporation lobbying "government" to put in place legislation / regulations that only they can do business under and forcing the small mom and pop business out, surely this is not what you call a "freemarket model ". No Atticus, here in Canada we do not have a freemarket system, we do not live in a true democracy, we live in a society controlled by the few and that my friend is an "OLICHACHY" .

Hmm, maybe I used the wrong word. If you look at China (my example) it has markets with very little restraints set on them (there are a few but I can only think of Hong Kong and Beijing). You do make a good point.

 

[a_majoor]

Actually, Atticus, there are a lot of restraints set upon the Chinese markets, the most powerful one being the fact that the Government is in control of the capital resources of the state. Enough "leakage" occurs to allow some "mom and pop" type business and the inevitable black market; but virtually every business entity that you encounter in China is owned or effectively controlled by the State.

Canada has more wiggle room; people can access capital and establish their own business, but obtrusive taxation and regulation make it difficult for a Canadian Bill Gates to succeed, and as noted, lots of large Canadian business entities have the ability to lobby the government and get access to bonanzas of money (our tax dollars, of course) or exemptions from taxes and regulations that hobble their competitors (Canadian Steamship Lines, for example, pays no Canadian taxes because their corporate headquarters was in a place which was [mysteriously  ] exemped from Canadian tax regulations. The fact the then owner was also the Minister of Finance (and now PM) is only a coincidence.....

Killing off corporate welfare would remove the dead hand of the state from the economy and raise our standard of living; the oligarches don't accept that since it means their standard of living and perques would no longer be reserved for them alone.

 

[Wayne Coady]

Actually, I think it is fair to say that Representative Democracy is an Oligarchy - with one key difference; the US Declaration of Independence points it out with:

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

Notice the emphasis - there was no hijacking.   Mr Coady is correct to point out that a disparate number of our politicians have been Lawyers from Quebec (the last 4 Prime Minsters were), but the only reason this is a fact is because we, the vox populi, gave them the consent to govern.

So, the long term answer, IMHO, is more direct democracy (I like the idea of the Athenian Lot) - the short
term answer is probably for Mr Coady to quit harping at an entire class of people (remember, painting with a broad brush isn't a good thing - not all soldiers are baby-killers) and to get involved with politics, saving us from the scourge of white-collar obfuscation.... ^-^

So when a person states an opinion or proposes reforming the way we have been electing  "government" you tag it as harping? Now if we were to go with your idea Athrerian Lot "government" we would end up with an assembly of all and only male citizens voting on decisions directly, thus leaving out our female citizens, surely you did not mean  that and if you did, then I harping. Imagine, a bunch of white modern day male lawyers making all of the decision, dam that is what we almost have now, isn't it ?

Athrerian "government was between the 4th and 6th century BC, I would like to see a more advance thinking  "government" .

 

[48Highlander]

So when a person states an opinion or proposes reforming the way we have been electing   "government" you tag it as harping? Now if we were to go with your idea Athrerian Lot "government" we would end up with an assembly of all and only male citizens voting on decisions directly, thus leaving out our female citizens, surely you did not mean   that and if you did, then I harping. Imagine, a bunch of white modern day male lawyers making all of the decision, dam that is what we almost have now, isn't it ?

Athrerian "government was between the 4th and 6th century BC, I would like to see a more advance thinking   "government" .

You're harping by implying that all lawyers are corrupt, horrible people, who should not be allowed to run for government.   No, you never stated it in those terms, but you implied it.   If you can't see what's wrong with that, well, I dunno how to explain it to ya.   Maybe this:   the problem isn't that all lawyers are corrupt - it's that too many of our politicians are.

 

[Wayne Coady]

Maybe to many of our politicans are lawyers and I never said all lawyers were corrupt, I said they self govern and when anyone group has that kind of power you better watch out. I also said that those lawyers who have sat in the big chiefs seat, ( meaning Prime Minister)   in Ottawa, well their record speaks for its self doesn't it?

All one needs to do is look back at the political history of Canada and look at the Prime Minister at the time. Lawyers who have served in "government" have a heck of a poor record when it comes to honesty or accountability. If you have been following the Gomery Inquiry you will have seen an army of lawyers and if you were to look at the law firms they are from , you will see that these firms either contracted to "government" or have one of the firms partners employed with the "government". Gomery's daughter is employed with the same firm Mulroney is with and we all remember Mulroney surely, don't we.
No, we have a bunch of lawyers investigating some of their very own peers and at the end of the day, Gomery (lawyer ) cannot pass judgment on any of the crooks.

It is my bet that if one of those lawyers were to fall, then   they all involved would fall too and we know that they are not going to let that happen. But in the mean time, every lawyer involved in the Gomery Inquiry is getting a very big pay check, which we get to pay.

Here in Nova Scotia there are two big law firms and they have been the 'government" for the past 25 years, they write legislation for "government" they have a partner on every Board or Agency of "government", and they get 80% of the "governments" work. In other words they know the business of every single taxpaying citizen, because they have positioned themselves.

These firms are involved in the registration of companies with the Joint Stock of Companies, they are so involved they even have their hands on the registry of wills. Should I trust a bunch of men who have been given legislative powers to self govern   and when you think about it, it was these same men that drafted this special legislation up? Imagine if the heck Angles were to have the same power given to them, they would then be able to do as the legal   community does, look out for their own.

 

[Infanteer]

So when a person states an opinion or proposes reforming the way we have been electing   "government" you tag it as harping?

No, when you tag an entire profession/class/race/nationality of people and accuse them of something, then it is harping.  As I said, painting with a broad brush won't get you far here - trying to blame lawyers for all of Canada's woe's is pretty vague, try finding some specific incidents to back your claim up.

Now if we were to go with your idea Athrerian Lot "government" we would end up with an assembly of all and only male citizens voting on decisions directly, thus leaving out our female citizens, surely you did not mean   that and if you did, then I harping. Imagine, a bunch of white modern day male lawyers making all of the decision, dam that is what we almost have now, isn't it?

Wow, way to read into that - here, let me help you out:

lot
n.
1. An object used in making a determination or choice at random: casting lots.

2. The use of objects in making a determination or choice at random: chosen by lot.

The Athenians, to break up social power blocs, divided the people into tribes and then further subdivided them according to region.  The lot was used to randomly assign civic positions to different citizens or tribes.

It would be interesting to see how direct democracy, which was executed by short-term positions that were elected by groups selected by a random lot would work in taking much away from the oligarchical tendencies of Representative Democracy.  Thomas Jefferson discussed this sort of notion as well with his concept of "wards".

Athrerian "government was between the 4th and 6th century BC, I would like to see a more advance thinking   "government" .

Well, we're sitting here in the 21st century bitching about how everything sucks, so looking back at the human experience may help in finding something new.

 

[Wayne Coady]

Political parties are artificially created adversarial divisions that hold nothing good for Canada in this Twenty-first century. That's why most people can see no real differences when they apply their rational minds to examining parties. Political parties came about, and continue to exist, because many of our governments (at all levels) are places of employment for lawyers. Lawyers, as a class, are no strangers to the adversarial way of arguing things.
This is the basis of every court settlement. And lawyers can swing to either side of any issue and defend it vehemently ---- if there is a sufficient reward. This same concept has been carried into our provincial "government"--- and they call it "democracy". LIKE HELL !

Parties today are a detriment to the growth of all of us. The electorate is limited in who it gets to vote for because of party politics and we ( Remember ?, "we're all in this together" ) all lose out because we are not always getting the best people in government because of this party affiliation or that.

Nor do we get good government because many of the decisions taken are predicated on whether the interests of the party, its adherents and financial supporters are met ... not those of the people who are only expected to pay for the results. The billion dollars in debt that this present government likes to throw in our faces - whenever we complain about shortfalls in education and health care spending, is not our doing.

Yet , we get saddled with the increased taxes to pay for the end result that exists because Tory and Liberal governments in the past took care of themselves and their friends at our expense. They also pay themselves very well. What do we get in return ? A bunch of monkeys in a zoo who pass legislation with a level of intellect that equals their collective decorum in the Canadian House of Commons.

If you consider this harping then, I am harping ! But never the less, we need to reform our present election system. If we need to go back in time Before Christ like you suggest to assist in rebuilding a political structure then so be it, but it needs to be done.

I do understand what Athenians Lot politics is all about and if you feel that it is something we should look at, then I welcome your point of view. I one the other hand too have reflected on our political past and it is my opinion that we have to many lawyers involved in the bowels of "government" . Our the past 10 years here in the Western World we have seen white collar crime go to it highest point and when you look at the large number of investors who have been had by these crooks, it should make people very nervous that these were the same people who bought off our political parties with investors stolen money.

Now when you look at this white collar crime in the investment community and toss in Canada's latest Sponsorship Ad Program, please keep in mind that behind every contract signed there was a lawyer to insure that all the "T" were crossed and all the "I's" were dotted. As the old saying goes behind every good man there is a good woman and behind ENRON, TOYKO, WASTE MANAGEMENT, WORLD COM or AD SCAM , there was a good lawyer. HARPING ...... HARPING....