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Getting the "government" We Deserve

In my opinion, I think we could be looking at a 30 to 50 year period between the time one generation stops voting, and another starts shooting.  When a democracy falls - it falls hard.  Politicians today should not be lining the pockets of their supporters and worrying about their place in history - they should be worrying about how many of their children and grandchildren will end up swinging from lamp posts.

People who say "That can never happen here!"  have their heads up their arses.  Civilization is a very thin veneer.

Tom
 
thats a scary view But I agre fully
its only a matter of time betwen when people don't cair to vote and when people wonder why there are people in power they don't like.
the Canadian sistom of party politicise dose not work to well at stopping corruption not that any   sistom dose a good job at it.
eventually people may figer out that you don't need a big gov. to be in charge. but until that hapens we stuck hear

also I almost did not vote but I did at the end for the NDP so they can get my 5$ or whatever a vote gives to a party (the only good thing the Lib party did is institute gov.funding for campanes, and limit privet donations)
 
Dogboy, could you use a spell checker please? I feel like Indiana Jones in some ancient tomb trying to read the hieroglyphics of a long extinct culture.

'L8tr dood'


 
One reason we get the "Government we deserve" is just a general level of illiteracy. The effects noted in the following article have been repeated in over 70 nations around the world, but look what happens when you mention tax cuts in Canada..."OH, THE HORROR: THIS WILL MEAN THE END OF HEALTHCARE (the secession of Quebec, the Maritimes, BC, the end of the Canada Council...you know the drill). If people are so easily taken in by Liberal fear mongering and do not take the time and effort to examine the facts, well, they get what is coming to them.

The Rapidly Declining Deficit
How's it happening? Look to the tax-rate cuts of 2003.

By Michael T. Darda

According to the Treasury department, the U.S. government took in a single-day record $61 billion in tax receipts on June 15. This surpassed the previous single-day high of $56 billion set on December 15, 2000. The recent surge in tax revenues is not just a one-day event. Fiscal year to date, total government receipts are up 15.5 percent, the fastest rate of increase on a comparable FYTD basis since 1981. The difference between the growth rate of tax revenues and the growth rate of government spending has widened to 8.4-percentage points, the largest since late 2000 when the budget was in surplus.

Not surprisingly, the recent tidal wave of tax receipts has ignited a furious debate about whether or not the Bush tax cuts are responsible for stimulating economic activity enough to actually boost overall tax-revenue collections. Classical economists refer to this as the Laffer curve, or the revenue-reflow, effect. In simple terms, if a tax cut stimulates the underlying activity being taxed, a revenue reflow will result. The reflow can offset or even surpass the volume of revenues that would have been collected under the higher tax rate and smaller tax base. Pro-growth tax-rate reductions on labor and capital in the 1920s, 1960s, 1980s, and then again in 1997 and 2003 all exhibited revenue-reflow effects, although some were stronger than others.

Despite the avalanche of historical evidence, some economists and policymakers question the validity of incentive-based revenue reflows and assert instead that the recent surge in tax-receipt growth has been caused by an increasing fraction of the workforce being ensnarled by the alternative minimum tax (AMT). They also argue that annual comparisons were made extremely easy due to the huge drop in revenues due to the 2000-02 stock market implosion and the 2001 recession that accompanied it. While there is some truth to these claims, they overlook several key facts.

The AMT, an increasing problem in its own right, does not explain the 45.2 percent fiscal year to date surge in corporate tax revenues and the 35 percent jump in non-withheld (i.e., capital gains) receipts. Fiscal year to date, corporate tax revenues are growing at 4.6-times the average rate of increase going back two decades. Moreover, rising profits and personal incomes, combined with the boom in housing, are increasing state and local tax revenues dramatically. According to the Nelson A. Rockefeller Institute of Government, state collections in the January-March quarter were up 11.7 percent, the strongest year-on-year growth for the comparable period since at least 1991. In other words, a broad rebound in economic activity, business profits, and asset prices has boosted the tax base and lifted revenues at all levels of government.

The tax-cut critics often suggest that tax revenues are growing because of the Fed's easy monetary policy. While the Fed's massive reflationary efforts during the last three and one-half years no doubt contributed to the strong rebound in economic activity (and thus the expansion of the tax base), there is strong evidence that the tax cuts in 2003 also played a large role in boosting growth and revenues. In order to see why, we need to draw a sharp distinction between the 2001 tax-cut bill, which was largely Keynesian in nature, and the 2003 tax cuts, which were decidedly supply-side.

The 2001 tax cuts combined small, glacially phased-in reductions in income-tax rates with credits and rebates designed to â Å“put money in peoples' pockets.â ? This traditional Keynesian stimulus technique has an incredibly poor track record. Tax credits and rebates simply shift money from one place to another, which can't â Å“create demandâ ? and doesn't stimulate behavior at the margin.

Conversely, the tax cuts passed in May 2003 were focused on dropping the top rates of tax on capital. The capital-gains tax (for gains held at least one year) was cut to 15 percent from 20 percent while the maximum tax rate on corporate dividends was slashed to 15 percent from 38.6 percent. The 2001 income-tax rate reductions (set to phase-in gradually) were made retroactive along with the tax cuts on capital and business-depreciation expensing. The economic response to the 2003 tax cuts was much more favorable than the stall-speed recovery that occurred in 2002.

Despite easy comparisons from the year before due to the recession, real GDP growth averaged just 2.3 percent at a quarterly annualized rate in 2002 while real non-residential business fixed investment averaged negative 5.9 percent growth. Since June 2003 (after the retroactive pro-growth tax bill became effective), real GDP growth has averaged 4.3 percent at a quarterly annualized rate while non-residential fixed investment has grown at a 10.8 percent pace. After slumping during and after the recession, the real capital-to-labor ratio has reached record levels recently, lifting wage and salary growth to a 7.5 percent annual rate. Although the Fed's easy monetary policies clearly have contributed to the growth rebound, it is important to remember that the fed funds rate averaged less than 2 percent during 2002 and the recovery that occurred was subpar in virtually every respect. All tax cuts are not created equal.

A dynamic analysis of the Bush tax cuts shows that long-run growth could be lifted by 0.85 percentage points as long as the lower-tax schedules on capital and labor remain in place. Ceteris paribus, an additional 0.85 percentage points of growth would augment revenues by $1.5 trillion during the next decade. The rebound in real economic growth since 2003 also suggests the fiscal deficit should fall to no more than 2 percent of GDP during the next year, less than the historical average going back to 1960.

Unfortunately, the finer points of dynamic scoring escape the â Å“logicâ ? of the no-growth neo-Malthusian Democrats and the root-canal contingent in the Republican party. Both would be well advised to look at the record of the Baltic states, some of which have had flat taxes for over a decade. Flat-tax countries have experienced superior macroeconomic performance and rapid tax-revenue growth despite undergoing the same unfavorable demographic trends that have plagued Western Europe and Japan. This is no accident.

Looking ahead, above-trend growth (and some added spending restraint) during the next several years could move the budget back into temporary fiscal surplus, but the emerging retirement of the baby-boom generation likely will pressure spending and push deficits higher after 2008. The solution to long-term deficits and impending demographic strains is to marry a market-based approach to monetary policy with an incentive-based approach to fiscal policy. This would lay the foundation for rapid growth and the gradual implementation of a fully funded ownership-based entitlement system.

â ” Michael T. Darda is the chief economist and director of research for MKM Partners, an equity execution and research boutique located in Greenwich, Conn.
 
http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_comment/darda200506270902.asp
 
Thank you Gunnar and Julio at least you folks got it.

2 Cdo...the only person I have to answer to on this site is Mr Bobbitt, if you or anyone else has a complaint about my moderating style please contact him.
 
Fry said:
The reason that I didn't vote in the last election, was because I didn't think either of the candidates were worthy of my vote. They all had promises which I didn't like. I'm not going to vote someone in that I don't think would do a good job.

The one true answer to that is get out and run yourself, or go to work for a candidate/party which does represent your views. There is a price for apathy, and Canadians are paying it.
 
Fry said:
The reason that I didn't vote in the last election, was because I didn't think either of the candidates were worthy of my vote. They all had promises which I didn't like. I'm not going to vote someone in that I don't think would do a good job.

ok, if u don't vote, go to Cuba or a another communist country!!!!

I vote for my values and my family! I vote conservative!
 
Ex-Dragoon said:
2 Cdo...the only person I have to answer to on this site is Mr Bobbitt, if you or anyone else has a complaint about my moderating style please contact him.

For some reason that comment bugs me. Maybe it's because, in a way, you actually answer to the membership of this site through Mike, who is the final arbiter (and if his style goes the way of Caligula, I'm sure the lack of discussion here will be notable - not something I think is likely). I'm not saying you're being dictatorial, though I agree with 2 Cdo that Mods in general are held to a higher standard, whether you know it, like it, or not. We expect a level of impartiality, at least, that is not expected in the rest of us unwashed.

That being said, your first point to Fry was well made: someone on a warning should choose his words more carefully than others - hot buttons like "stupid" have to be used with care.

And finally, I think he has a point. When the specter of an election was looming a month or so ago I was despairing of where I'd put my vote. I still do. I'm not ready to abandon the process quite yet though.

Acorn
 
Yes, I should choose my words carefully. No, I'm not going to move to Cuba. Some of you, not all, seem to misunderstand me once again.

I reviewed all of the "promises" of all the candidates in my riding, and this time none of them seemed to be what I wanted to vote for, therefore I didn't vote. I have voted in the past because there were members that I figured were worthy enough for my vote.


Ex-Dragoon, I have no problems with your moderating style. I just didn't like the fact that you figured I forfeited my freedom of speech when the candidates in my riding weren't to my liking.

No, I won't run in my riding, because I wouldn't make a good politician, and it's not something I wish to make a career of.

I also didn't like the fact that I was threatened to be banned, despite ex-dragoon's comment. I really appreciate this board and the people on it. It has helped me learn many things about the forces and myself already, and I've only been on here about a month.

 
Fry said:
I reviewed all of the "promises" of all the candidates in my riding, and this time none of them seemed to be what I wanted to vote for, therefore I didn't vote. I have voted in the past because there were members that I figured were worthy enough for my vote.

Ex-Dragoon, I have no problems with your moderating style. I just didn't like the fact that you figured I forfeited my freedom of speech when the candidates in my riding weren't to my liking.

No, I won't run in my riding, because I wouldn't make a good politician, and it's not something I wish to make a career of.

If you don't like what is being offered, and won't run (or work for a political party) and don't vote, then how, pray tell, do you propose to change things? Given you have eliminated the first three choices, the only options left (historically) is to leave the country or to engage in armed revolution.

If you find our opinions fairly hard edged, it is because most of us are serving or former service members, and we have a pretty direct approach to things. If you want change, get out there and change things. I may not agree with what you are doing, but will certainly respect the fact that you are out there doing something.
 
I'm waiting for an election to be called because there will be a couple of new members in my riding. No, I wouldn't make a good politician, so even trying to run would be pointless.

So you mean to tell me, if Liberal A has a promise such as " All people with yellow houses will have to pay an $2000 a year, and COnservative B says "All people with green houses pay 2000bucks a year extra" , NDP C says "All people with purple houses pay 2000 a year" and independant says All houses pay 10,000 extra tax a year to the government.

For example if my house is green, My grandparents house is yellow, and my great grand parents house is purple. Some of you are saying that Vote! Vote at least someone. Either way, someone I care about, including myself, will get the shaft. I don't want to be part of the process that helps bring that crap in. Therefore I seen no candidates worthy of my vote. I stayed home.

If we have better politicians running, then they'd get more votes. You don't get votes because you're a politican belonging to a certain party.

My approach was direct enough. No good? No vote. Simple as that.
 
danielbouchard said:
ok, if u don't vote, go to Cuba or a another communist country!!!!

I vote for my values and my family! I vote conservative!

Its narrow mindid view like that that scare me.
like voting will really change anything.
Conservative liberal the all seam the same to me
I don't thing voting is the only political thing you can do, IMHO its the least political thing you can do.

PS I always use the spellcheck
 
Dogboy said:
Its narrow mindid view like that that scare me.
like voting will really change anything.
Conservative liberal the all seam the same to me
I don't thing voting is the only political thing you can do, IMHO its the least political thing you can do.

PS I always use the spellcheck

yeah that was a kinda weird post... your spellcheck must be taking a break or somethin, lol... 

 
Part of my job these days entails meeting people who came here because where they were before they often never had the option of voting for anyone good bad or indifferent, and/or if they did vote and not for the right guy they usually paid for it with the door kicked in at zero dark thirty and got dragged off into the night to never be seen again.

I've also visited many of those places over the years, and seen first hand the results and why they left, at least those that were able to. Incidentally they do have regular â Å“democraticâ ? elections in Cuba, there's just one name on the ballot.

Trust me they are not apathetic.

One of the things I am proud of is that only once in my life have I failed to not vote in Federal, Provincial and/or Municipal elections since I was old enough to do so. That one time BTW I was out of the country and missed both advance and regular polls (ironically it was when Ontario elected Bob Rae and the NDP so you can all blame me).

During that time I have often known that my vote is not going to the winning candidate/party
(I live in a downtown Toronto riding dominated by Liberals Federally and Provincially), and at other times I have deliberately spoiled my ballet realising that all the choices open were equally bad. 

Either way I did not feel it was a waste of my time and effort, The fact is I got off the couch and went out and voted.. It was something I had/have to do.

Anyone who doesn't no matter how they may try and justify it is part of the problem, not the solution.
 
Finally something sensible on the subject. Spoiled votes are looked at and recorded. Eventually, maybe, when hell freezes over, they will outnumber a popular candidate's vote. Then the politician's will realize it's not voter apathy, but voter dissatisfaction with the way things are being run. But it will never happen if you can't get your lazy ass off the couch...because no one deserves my vote. How will they know unless you show them. Right now they depend on apathetic people and old ladies living in some past political utopia to stay in power. Make no mistake, they neither care, or want you, to come to the polls. You decrease their chances of another four years at the pig trough. I've always said, and not that I'm advocating it, but our politicians won't take the voter seriously and act in our interest until one of them gets assassinated by some regular Joe who's lost everything to the system.
 
Anyone ever see the Richard Pryor movie Brewster's Millions. Part of it involves him running for mayor of NYC against two equally corrupt and dishonest candidates. He gets his name on the ballot and then campaigns on the slogan â Å“none of the aboveâ ? refering to all three candidates.

As recceguy says no votes cast/spoiled are really wasted. Enough of them and eventually even those in the hallowed halls of Disneyland on the Rideau may get the message and actually listen to us poor peons down in the muck.
 
recceguy said:
Finally something sensible on the subject. Spoiled votes are looked at and recorded. Eventually, maybe, when heck freezes over, they will outnumber a popular candidate's vote. Then the politician's will realize it's not voter apathy, but voter dissatisfaction with the way things are being run. But it will never happen if you can't get your lazy *** off the couch...because no one deserves my vote. How will they know unless you show them. Right now they depend on apathetic people and old ladies living in some past political utopia to stay in power. Make no mistake, they neither care, or want you, to come to the polls. You decrease their chances of another four years at the pig trough. I've always said, and not that I'm advocating it, but our politicians won't take the voter seriously and act in our interest until one of them gets assassinated by some regular Joe who's lost everything to the system.

Iv never thought of spoiled votes like that before.
but it dose make sense
what are your views on ballot eaters then?
 
The repeated comments about not voting or spoiling the ballot are really getting under the Infantry Sgt part of my constitution. I really would like to line these clowns up at attention and give them a very pre SHARP high speed high volume one way conversation re: being whiners and layabouts.

Now that is out of the way, there still is that little matter of WHAT ARE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT!!! Anyone one who refuses to vote, or passive/aggressively spoils a ballot are not taking any action to change things, and cop outs like "I  wouldn't make a good politician" are just that; cop outs.

I am probably the least charismatic, glad handing type of person out here, and I am determined to stand on my hind legs and give the city politicians and the voters the most astounding show possible in the next civic elections through the simple mechanism of "telling them what has to be said" as opposed to "what they want to hear". ( London area members feel free to PM me.)

Do I think  will be elected? Who knows. Maybe I will get two votes, or maybe I will put a huge scare in the local establishment, or maybe I will find myself sitting in the mayors seat and wondering how the hell I will be able to make these campaign promises happen.

Or maybe I should just stay at home watching CSI.

Which choice do you, dear reader, think will create the conditions for change?


 
I have picked some sense out of all of this... Spoiling my ballot would have probably been better than not voting at all, but I stilll don't think it's fair to say that you HAVE to vote for someone... even if you don't like what they propose to do if elected in government. That's bull.

And, no, I'm not a lazy a$$, I don't sit down and watch "CSI" all day/night. I work 12-16 hours a day.
 
Dogboy said:
Its narrow mindid view like that that scare me.

PS I always use the spellcheck

Liar.

Read through your posts.   If you are going to type like a 10 year old, I am going to assume you are and thus violating Board Policy.
 
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