Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)

[AbdullahD]

First, thank you for taking so much of your time to reply.  I'm on smartphone at moment but will take time to read links when on laptop.

I feel your pain, I do everything on my phone.

Based on your comments I wonder if I don't have at least a partial solution for Canada to push things in the right direction.

Have the CRA add a new Charter of Rights and Freedoms qualifier to the Religious Centre tax-exempt rule.

Very dangerous, but could work... with a whole lot of qualifiers...

The key being that a religious centre SHOULD be doing good things for the country in exchange for tax-exempt status.

So....

1.  Each centre which is claiming tax exempt status must post a manifesto of beliefs including a public acceptance of other religions, races, genders and sexual orientations (ergo working towards the objectives of the Charter instead of against it).  If this public declaration is not made, tax exempt status is forfeited.

I agree.. sadly only to an extent. The only place I disagree is why force people to adhere to a certain countries style of tolerance? Muslims do not agree with homosexuality so why potentially force them to promote it? But forcing them and other groups who disagree with it to be tolerant of other people's choices I agree with you. I.e we don't agree with all sexual orientations, but we won't ostracize you for it or some such thing.

2.  In practice, seating and prayer areas must not be segregated.  If they are segregated, tax exempt status is forfeited.  I know the term "girl power" gets overused these days, but making all genders equal in prayer (and as such in the eyes of God) is a step in the right direction.

See now this is were I likely won't make any friends here. But I should really make my wife write this part, because she is a Muslim equivalent of a feminist lol but I'll post my views... which I feel are supported.

Now first my err your problem, you will have to sell this to all the ladies who want to be segregated during prayer.

Now ladies should have the right to pray in the same room. But! Due to physical constraints sometimes that is an issue, see praying juma'ah  (Friday pray) is obligatory on men but not women, congregational prayer is highly encouraged for men but neutral for women. Then add that too the fact that woman have the privilege to request a separate Prayer room we start having large issues that a lot of mosques can not afford to fix.

Now we have VERY large segments of our ladies who wish to be completed segregated and who are we to tell them they HAVE to pray in the same room? (In this i follow a liberal opinion, it is a supported opinion but having trouble finding my proofs right now, but my opinion is women have the right to pray in the same room or separately whichever THEY prefer).

These links are not as substantiated as I like or following my exact opinion... but it should give an idea.

http://muslimmatters.org/2010/02/08/the-penalty-box/

http://www.islamicity.org/3110/women-in-mosques/

See Muslims hold modesty in high regard as a value, but it is getting perverted. The ignorant mullahs and muslims refuse our women the right they have to education, to prayer in the main hall, to directly arguing their ideas, to eating together, to choosing their spouse etc thus making Islam more rigid then it is. Some of our greatest scholars were women, our greatest examples were women, we have great female warriors etc and yet... they HAVE to pray in some dusty dirty smelly room off to the side... it  is not supported and the counter arguments destroy the idea.

Now a person's physical location does not make them equal in prayer. Aisha ra's prayer is way better then mine same with Fatima ra, khadeejah ra etc but they don't believe (at least according to everything I know) that men and women should pray side by side during obligatory  'congragational' prayers. So during sunnah prayers, nawafil etc they should be able to pray wherever.

There is a few more, but this is a start into the major types of prayer if interested;

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salah

Now to give a fair shake to the rest of my post here I'll link this little prayer how to in case people don't know.

https://islamqa.info/en/65847

Now the argument against men and women not praying side by side that I've heard is that men and women distract each other and that every means possible must be made to remove distractions while praying. So thus it is encouraged men pray towards the front because in most cases the prayer is obligatory for them and that women pray towards the back because in most cases it is optional for them to pray in congregation.

But that is not say that women are categorically forbidden from leading all prayers period. They can lead other women and kids etc also note how this link the last hadith is from that ikrimah guy.

http://www.islamswomen.com/articles/can_a_woman_be_imam.php

Also I will as my closing arguments on this particular point say that just because women can't lead us in prayer (in most cases), doesn't mean they can't be our war generals, our business ladies, our professors, our spiritual guides, our mayors or presidents etc etc etc... because they can. It's just in this one area segregation is encouraged to protect modesty and to reduce distractions.

3.  In practice, each centre must co-host a social gathering with another centre of another faith once per quarter to build bonds.  Failure to do so will result in tax exempt status being forfeited.

This i disagree with. Mainly because canada is a Christian nation and many cities and towns do not have multiple religions in it. So to force Christians  (or anyone else) to host another center of another faith once per quarter or lose tax exemption is quite harsh.

But having them partake in interfaith dialogue or other such things is not a bad idea at all, my good friend is on the Vernon BC Mosques board of directors and I know his family is big into that kind of stuff, but then again he is a powerhouse kind of guy and his wife is just as strong. They do a lot ie host school kids, do classes etc but here is the link to the interfaith canada group which is the group I believe they work with

http://www.interfaithconversation.ca

Also once per quarter seems quite often... but then again I am lazy... and I also note not many new faces attend these interfaith functions. But trying to get these functions up and going to help promote dialogue is a good idea and maybe 4 times in larger centers isn't a bad thing... but I'm a small town guy and 4x a year would annoy a lot of people... plus it's costly so if your congregation is small and they have to host or Co host these functions it basically becomes a tax on them effectively.

The key being that most bigoted beliefs (with the important caveat that these exist in churches and synagogues as well as mosques) can only exist in ignorance.  If we force communication and cooperation between THE MEMBERS of all the religious centres, then a lot of that bigotry should dissipate.  It's clearly not 100% solution, but it could be a good start.

Anyone?

Ya know I do think you are on to something, but the tight line we have to walk is just because we don't agree or believe in something.. does not make those beliefs bigoted. Because a lot of times I hear calls to make it so women can not wear Islamic style clothes and it really makes a lot of muslim women sick. Because they are comfortable being covered and away from men while praying and they should have that liberty so to force something on someone who doesn't want it is wrong.

Now this does not address the issue that in Canada I do not believe that Islamic centers are the major cause of radicalization in the majority of cases. Yes a lot of them have screwed up beliefs, but most people can still be non violent with those weird beliefs systems

In most cases I find that online propaganda or social groups outside of the Mosque are the largest causes of radicalization.  But that doesn't mean some mosques are not an issue, because I'm sure we have some bad ones. But the majority are not.

The religious leaders or the de facto leaders in most  Muslim communities I know of work directly with csis  or the RCMP on  issues of radicalization and directly combat these issues. Furthermore I know of at least (read many) Muslims in almost every single mosque I've been to who would report to the RCMP if they heard someone spouting propaganda for daesh.

So yea, with a few amendments your idea could help... but it is a very dangerous idea... filled with many landmines.

Abdullah

PS just to make sure I'm clear, those who refuse women education, choice in choosing their spouse, coming to the Mosque etc are not practicing anything Islamic at all and should be shunned and I denounce those practices 100%

Pss shayk atabek and I agree on most things on some things I take different positions. So if interested feel free to watch his stuff... warning he is not in to short talks.

https://asharisassemble.com/sheikh-atabek-shukurov/

 

[mariomike]

July 03, 2016

How close is too close to active-shootings? Hard question for Orlando paramedics
http://www.torontosun.com/2016/07/03/how-close-is-too-close-to-active-shootings-hard-question-for-orlando-paramedics
ORLANDO, Fla. -- When the first paramedics arrived on the scene of the Pulse nightclub shooting, they could still hear gunfire coming from inside the club. In active-shooting cases, recent federal guidelines call for medics to put on body armour and go into potentially dangerous situations alongside police officers when possible. But paramedics Josh Granada and Carlos Tavarez didn't have bullet-proof vests."

"Could they have saved more lives if they had body armour..."

 

[jollyjacktar]

My question would be, why didn't they have body armour?  I would expect in Florida or any major American city for that matter that EMS personnel would be coming across calls that require that level of protection on a fairly consistent basis.

 

[The Bread Guy]

2.  In practice, seating and prayer areas must not be segregated.  If they are segregated, tax exempt status is forfeited.  I know the term "girl power" gets overused these days, but making all genders equal in prayer (and as such in the eyes of God) is a step in the right direction.

If this is going to be based on the Charter, how about making all genders equal in officiation (women has as much of a chance to be clergy/officiants as men) as well as prayer to qualify for tax-exempt status?

After all, if Charter is going to supercede religion, let's be fair and include ALL religions, right?

 

[The Bread Guy]

Interesting point brought up by others around here ...

FIRST, a three-part quiz:

Which Islamic country celebrates as a national hero a 15th-century Christian who battled Muslim invaders?

Which Islamic country is so pro-American it has a statue of Bill Clinton and a women’s clothing store named “Hillary” on Bill Klinton Boulevard?

Which Islamic country has had more citizens go abroad to fight for the Islamic State per capita than any other in Europe?

The answer to each question is Kosovo, in southeastern Europe — and therein lies a cautionary tale. Whenever there is a terrorist attack by Muslim extremists, we look to our enemies like the Islamic State or Al Qaeda. But perhaps we should also look to our “friends,” like Saudi Arabia ...

 

[AbdullahD]

Yea, the Wahhabi sect of salafism has reached kosovo. This one scholar I'm linking below is very popular amongst eastern europeans and he... promotes odd views to say the least.

I know this is not necessarily new information, I love my eastern European brothers.. but there are worrying trends. But having said that the majority of them follow the eastern European flavour of the hanafi school... it's just with the the repression of religion during communist rule in eastern Europe... it's left a bit of a gap for teaching. Still the majority are fine, just they hold quite  a few extremists. Exact numbers I did not know.

Also before everyone hates all Saudis. The vast majority of them are NOT salafi... the state has sponsored the salafi school of thought, but the majority are still Hanbali. It is just that the salafi school of thought have taken a lot from the Hanbali school. Also I heard from one Saudi uncle that allegedly the Saudi state has just recently started about thinking on promoting Hanbali thoughts over salafi thoughts and giving the four major madhabs (school of thoughts) A honest representation in their school systems. I don't have a link because this was told verbally to me I will Google it in a bit and edit in if I find something.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Nasiruddin_al-Albani

http://islamqa.org/hanafi/darulifta-deoband/78826

Not apologizing, just letting you guys know the Muslim community is aware of this too and we are working in it as well...

Abdullah

 

[a_majoor]

Just a comment on AbdullahD's posts.

Religion is protected from government interference by the Charter in Canada and the First Amendment in the United States for a reason. If the State gets to pick and choose "how" people worship then they are not much different from ISIS so called Caliphate, or the situation in Europe during the 30 years war. The oppression also isn't going to be limited to Islam, in the 1980's Canada was essentially a battleground between Indian Hindu and Sikh factions, and in the 90's the Hindu LTTE (Liberation Tigers of Tamil Elam) were operation in Canada against the Bhuddist Sinhalese Siri Lankans. Should *we* start taking sides or trying to segregate or disaggregate people by their religious affiliation? Which branch of the Shik religion should be deemed "responsible"? If we are "for" the Hindus in the 1980's do we go "against" them in the 1990's?

A much better solution is to do more of what we are doing: enhanced intelligence and law enforcement against known and suspected individuals here, and tracking the terrorist organizations and cells here and abroad. On a larger scale, it wouldn't be a stretch to use PSYOPS messaging techniques to counter the messages that extremist groups put forth. Target selectively, not indiscriminately.

 

[mariomike]

My question would be, why didn't they have body armour?  I would expect in Florida or any major American city for that matter that EMS personnel would be coming across calls that require that level of protection on a fairly consistent basis.

That seems to be a question many are asking. Not just in Orlando, but in cities across North America.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

A attack in Malaysia has been linked to ISIS, the beginning of a bad time I am afraid. AQ used to stay in Malaysia, but I suspect they had a deal with Special Branch; “You don’t cause trouble and we don’t look to hard” AQ treated Malaysia as a R&R place. It will become a prime battleground for the ISIS types as they can’t stand the thought of Muslim living side by side with unbelievers and any form of accommodation.

As for mosques here, I believe that every one of them should be required to have a communal mixed prayer area as the primary space, perhaps 2 small rooms for both male and female with TV’s showing the Iman. Also women need to have the choice whether to cover their hair or not. Any form of harassment for praying together or not covering their head, should be treated as discrimination and have the police lay charges. The only way to get rid of the cockroaches is to shine a bright light and leave no shadows. The segregation and head covering is contrary to the values of this country and people are going to have to accept that. People are to fearful to take on the radicals on their own and I suspect government is going to need to get involved.

 

[AbdullahD]

Words do not convey my rage. Murdering people at Islam's holiest site and they have the gall to call themselves Muslim.  These pos... I'll stop.

https://www.rt.com/news/349472-blast-saudi-arabia-medina/

 

[Jed]

Just a comment on AbdullahD's posts.

Religion is protected from government interference by the Charter in Canada and the First Amendment in the United States for a reason. If the State gets to pick and choose "how" people worship then they are not much different from ISIS so called Caliphate, or the situation in Europe during the 30 years war. The oppression also isn't going to be limited to Islam, in the 1980's Canada was essentially a battleground between Indian Hindu and Sikh factions, and in the 90's the Hindu LTTE (Liberation Tigers of Tamil Elam) were operation in Canada against the Bhuddist Sinhalese Siri Lankans. Should *we* start taking sides or trying to segregate or disaggregate people by their religious affiliation? Which branch of the Shik religion should be deemed "responsible"? If we are "for" the Hindus in the 1980's do we go "against" them in the 1990's?

A much better solution is to do more of what we are doing: enhanced intelligence and law enforcement against known and suspected individuals here, and tracking the terrorist organizations and cells here and abroad. On a larger scale, it wouldn't be a stretch to use PSYOPS messaging techniques to counter the messages that extremist groups put forth. Target selectively, not indiscriminately.

Just a thought; To target selectively, profiling is a necessity, as well as properly identifying the problem group by name.
 

 

[jollyjacktar]

Words do not convey my rage. Murdering people at Islam's holiest site and they have the gall to call themselves Muslim.  These pos... I'll stop.

https://www.rt.com/news/349472-blast-saudi-arabia-medina/

Sad to say, but Aubdullah the only folks who'll be able to stop the madmen are Muslims themselves.  That won't happen though until they reach the point that enough is enough by the masses.  Only then will they turn on those within who are dragging them down and shut that shit down for good.  What it will it take to reach that flashpoint???  Who knows, I can't imagine what depths of depravity they'll need to plunge to before everyone snaps and curb stomps them to death for good as the tolerance for obscene acts seems to be sky high...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Not the first time either, Grand Mosque in 1979 and then before it a bunch of terrorists captured it in 1924. Also going back they had held it from 1744 till their bloody reign was removed by force in 1818. Sadly the Ottomans were never able to wipe out the house of Saud and the Whabbists.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Perhaps if the Ottomans hadn't taken up with the Central Powers, they wouldn't have been crushed and might have been able to stop the House of Saud from rising and their Whabbist shitheads from spreading poison.

 

[a_majoor]

Just a thought; To target selectively, profiling is a necessity, as well as properly identifying the problem group by name.

The objection I am raising is that some of these schemes are indiscriminate. To use an example, the Sikh religion has several subjects (like Islam or Christianity). Do you know *which* sect is responsible for carrying out attacks in India? The idea that all Muslims should be forced to pray in a single prayer room  because *some* Muslims are misogynists is equally indiscriminate. How would you like someone to tell you how your ouse of worship should be laid out, how the Liturgy be read or even if congregations be segregated or not? The last example is exactly the sort of thing which happened during the religious wars in Europe (everything from Henry VIII overthrowing the Catholic Church in England to the 30 years war in central Europe).

So certainly use profiling to help target the people who need to be targeted, but make sure the targeting is very precise and selective.

 

[GAP]

Perhaps if the Ottomans hadn't taken up with the Central Powers, they wouldn't have been crushed and might have been able to stop the House of Saud from rising and their Whabbist shitheads from spreading poison.

I keep wondering what the difference between them and christian ministries setting out to convert the world. Some, most were well intentioned, but there were some that were right out there..... :2c:

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The objection I am raising is that some of these schemes are indiscriminate. To use an example, the Sikh religion has several subjects (like Islam or Christianity). Do you know *which* sect is responsible for carrying out attacks in India? The idea that all Muslims should be forced to pray in a single prayer room  because *some* Muslims are misogynists is equally indiscriminate. How would you like someone to tell you how your ouse of worship should be laid out, how the Liturgy be read or even if congregations be segregated or not? The last example is exactly the sort of thing which happened during the religious wars in Europe (everything from Henry VIII overthrowing the Catholic Church in England to the 30 years war in central Europe).

So certainly use profiling to help target the people who need to be targeted, but make sure the targeting is very precise and selective.

Except that the Whabbists have hellbent in basically eliminated any other version in Sunni Islam for the last 50 years and have been very successful at it. I suspect the majority of Sunni Muslim could not tell you “which school of belief they belong to”. The Whabbists have been doing a very good job of “boiling the frog slowly”. I am afraid that half measures are not going to cut it at this point. I also think that all mosques need to publish their sermons on a public website, which I think the government can host. This again removes part of the veil the fundamentalist use. If you look at methodology the mosque is the key factor in maintaining the cohesion that has allowed fundamentalist groups to survive and thrive even in oppressive regimes. For the non-segregated prayers, give them a timeframe to comply, but stick to it. 

With the Shia’s you need to more selective as the extent of the Iranian Mullahs is not as widespread.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I keep wondering what the difference between them and christian ministries setting out to convert the world. Some, most were well intentioned, but there were some that were right out there..... :2c:

I think they're somewhat the opposite sides of the same coin.  Albeit, missionaries from another age perhaps.  But then, the mindset of the Whabbist dicks is from a thousand years ago too.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I keep wondering what the difference between them and christian ministries setting out to convert the world. Some, most were well intentioned, but there were some that were right out there..... :2c:

At one level, you're right -- but some of Canada's churches have apologized for well-intentioned policies of the past (while others are still a bit ... hesitant ... about a blanket apology), so even they realize hindsight is 20-20.

 

[a_majoor]

Except that the Whabbists have hellbent in basically eliminated any other version in Sunni Islam for the last 50 years and have been very successful at it. I suspect the majority of Sunni Muslim could not tell you “which school of belief they belong to”. The Whabbists have been doing a very good job of “boiling the frog slowly”. I am afraid that half measures are not going to cut it at this point. I also think that all mosques need to publish their sermons on a public website, which I think the government can host. This again removes part of the veil the fundamentalist use. If you look at methodology the mosque is the key factor in maintaining the cohesion that has allowed fundamentalist groups to survive and thrive even in oppressive regimes. For the non-segregated prayers, give them a timeframe to comply, but stick to it. 

With the Shia’s you need to more selective as the extent of the Iranian Mullahs is not as widespread.

Sunni Muslims will have to answer the question as to what school they belong to, but blanket provisions like you are proposing are much like gun control advocates telling us that everyone who has a firearm is dangerous and must be disarmed. And if mosques need to publish sermons, what about churches, synagogues and temples? If I do home bible study, am I obligated to publish what verse I am reading? Where does it end?

The surveillance state being built on fears of terrorism is large, intrusive, expensive and intrudes on all our liberties enough, even though it is unable to stop "home grown" terrorists. It is also quite conceivable that with a change to the definition of who is a terrorist or what constitutes terrorism, the state can be turned against anyone. This is most certainly a road I do not want to go down, and I'm pretty sure most people would not make that choice willingly either.