Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)

[AbdullahD]

So if I understand it correctly Islamic scholars take it upon themselves to decipher the Koran and can basically come up with different rules and laws on their own? Like a thou shall not pokemon ruling?

As English has evolved over the centuries, as has other languages, the original meanings of some words have changed over time and with context.  It is likely that the Arabic languages are no different.  This would be compounded, as well, as more words are added to a language to differentiate between the various nuances of a series of words for a certain thing.

George is 100% right, Arabic has changed over the last 1,400 years. So arabic speaking people who read the Quran and Hadith's are not getting the full understanding. It has not changed quite as much as english, but it is still changed.

Not all Islamic scholars are qualified to decipher the Quran and on top of that those qualified to decipher the Quran may, not be eligible to decipher Hadiths because they are two different areas of studies. A rough break down in order of easiness to toughest  (roughly) is as follows and levels of knowledge.

1-Hafiz; someone who has memorized the Quran and nothing else, he can simply recite the entire Quran by memory. That is all, he may not even understand what he is saying, which is usually the case in areas like Pakistan and India.

2-Qari; Qari's have perfected the pronunciation and intonation of recitation of the Quran and nothing else, albeit sometimes they are also taught the correct way to perform prayer.

3-Alim; they usually have done 6 years of studies on average, usually only taking one month off a year for Ramadan and then 5 or 6 days a week in studies at Madrasah's or Darul Uloom's which are were the majority of Islamic scholars are certified in our own rites.

4-Mufti; they have completed their Alim studies and have usually done the Hafiz studies as well. They have performed more in depth studies and are able to give Quran tafsir on the spot due to extensive studies. But very rarely will they make their own. Mufti's have completed studies in the arabic language from the time of the prophet pbuh, to understand the linguistic nuances of the Quran to some extent and the historical context of the verses of when where and why the verse came down. Now mufti studies usually take an extra 2 or 3 years on top of Alim studies, but they can continue for many many years depending on how deep they wish to go.

Some Mufti's specialize in Quranic tafsir, or explanation of Hadiths, or the different legal rulings, or different spiritual aspects and how they pertain in this day and age. So just because someone is a Mufti doesnt mean he will create a explanation for you, but it does mean generally he can give you one from one of the tafsirs already in existence. But having said that, you have to go to the right Alim for what you wish to understand...

Now I have big and serious issues with people who circumvent 8-10 years of studies and make up their own opinions on the Quran and Hadiths. I dont mind anyone taking time to do these studies and give Tafsir, but until a person understands the language and context fully, I believe they should keep their yap shut.

Abdullah

 

[George Wallace]

Interesting commentary by an Australian politician, Kirralie Smith:

http://vidmax.com/video/145275--Some-people-are-calling-me-divisive-for-pointing-out-that-Islam-is-divisive-Kirralie-Smith-absolutely-destroys-the-hypocritical-liberals-attacking-her-over-exposing-Islam

 

[YZT580]

Now I have big and serious issues with people who circumvent 8-10 years of studies and make up their own opinions on the Quran and Hadiths. I dont mind anyone taking time to do these studies and give Tafsir, but until a person understands the language and context fully, I believe they should keep their yap shut.

Abdullah

Your prejudices are showing. That is a totally arrogant statement.  By the same token, you will agree that you have no right to comment regarding Christianity and about the Jewish faith since you have not put 8 or 10 years into studying these faiths.

One of the leaders of ISIS was asked why he became radicalized.  (He was a well-educated gentleman).  His reply:"I read the Quran"  and that is what it says.  You can preach all you want about ISIS not presenting the true face of Islam to the world but a simple reading of your book reveals a text chock full of hate; a book that ridicules all those who do not follow its tenets, a book that authorizes its followers to murder all those who do not follow its teachings and a book that presents an self-confessed pedophile as an example for others to follow. It doesn't take 10 years to discover the hate.  But maybe it takes that amount of study to discover love or respect for others that don't think as the prophet would have liked. Tell me, is one of the names for God in the Quron Father? 

 

[AbdullahD]

Interesting commentary by an Australian politician, Kirralie Smith:

http://vidmax.com/video/145275--Some-people-are-calling-me-divisive-for-pointing-out-that-Islam-is-divisive-Kirralie-Smith-absolutely-destroys-the-hypocritical-liberals-attacking-her-over-exposing-Islam

It is always interesting to me when political parties or politically active people quote the Quran and do not stop to think it is also in other holy books.

I always thought the PR handlers would want to avoid that stuff. But then again if the average voter they are going after buys it hook line and sinker, they wont look in their own closets.

Thus those awkward questions wont be asked... meh maybe I am arrogant. I sometimes wonder if showing those same style verses in other religions would help this bigotry, but I cant bring myself to think bigotry and ignorance is the right answer to bigotry and ignorance.

Oh for the record im not saying all people who dislike Islam and Muslims are ignorant bigots. I am just saying there is a faction wether large or small who are.

Abdullah

Ps my threshold for calling politicians and other educated peoples bigots is much lower, because they have teams of peoples or should understand these nuances. I am also not necessarily saying this lady is a bigot either. I was talking generally. I also expect to be called a bigot by the membership here if I ever make such ignorant statements about other religions. So this stick goes both ways, the ignorant and poor normal folks get a bigger lee way.

 

[a_majoor]

I have been spending time reading some of the links AbdullahD kindly provided, and I have come to a conclusion that meshes with some of the comments upthread. Essentially this is the argument that Samuel Huntington made in "The Clash of Civilizations", the meaning of the words and phrases is different.

Not just different in that the language has evolved over 1400 years, but literally the concepts being described by the same words are different in different cultural groups.

To use a Western example, the concept of citizen has evolved over the centuries. A Citizen with political rights in the 18th century would be a property owning male, while our definition of citizen is vastly expanded. Now consider how the same concept is interpreted in a different cultural group.

Huntington suggests that it is a characteristic of all cultures ("Civilizations" in his term) and the misunderstandings of terms like "Justice", "Rights" and so on is going to lead to conflict between cultural groups. Deradicalization of groups embedded in the larger polity will be more difficult since we are literally not talking about the same things.

 

[AbdullahD]

Now that is a very interesting observation, I think I may have to purchase this book.

Thanks for the link

 

[The Bread Guy]

Interesting approach ...
"On 15th Anniversary Of 9/11, Al-Qaeda Leader Al-Zawahiri Urges Mujahideen To Focus On Targeting U.S., Incites Black Christians Against U.S. And Calls Them To Islam"
Sounds almost Illinois Nazi  ;D

 

[AbdullahD]

As a little expansion on the possessiveness post from the culture thread, I will add this. Very rarely do rascists, misogynists and bigots think they are any such thing, they usually have excuses and alleged logic to why they act that way. So I will keep an eye on this particular thing and try to be conscious of it, especially on here, but do know I accept the FACT that I have negative traits or characteristics. But I always strive to improve myself, so if I do have this failing, I will try to improve.

Anywho my wifes thoughts

It doesn't really matter if women and men pray in the same room or in different rooms. When we celebrate Eid, depending on weather and how many show up we might be praying outside. The women pray behind the men just like they did hundreds of years ago and still do today in some places. During hajj men and women pray side by side. I would say women having their own room to pray in is a luxury. They can come and go to the bathroom/wudhu station without having to wait for men. They can also take their time with prayers and even bring their children along and be able to congregate with eachother without bothering the men. Women don't normally go to the mosque unless it is Friday or for celebration prayers. They go to these prayers because unlike the other prayers there is always a sermon. Women want to be able to go to the mosque and listen to these sermons but some men dont approve of children being in the mosque and so women with children avoid attending these prayers. When they have there own room they can bring their children and not worry about bothering then men. So there you have it women having their own room is a luxury.

Now jarnhammer you think that a higher percent of woman are opressed and I think a minute number are oppressed. But regardless if it is Muslim Men oppressing Muslim women or they are just percieved to be oppressed by the 'west' it could and does fuel Islamophobia, which fuels radical recruitment of disenfranchised Muslims.

Anywho I am being attacked by kids ttyl
Abdullah

 

[Kirkhill]

In my church the kids were sent to the basement for Sunday School, for exactly the same reasons.

No problems with anyone's personal choices so long as they are personal choices and don't impact my personal choices.

Just don't make me go to Sunday School again.....

 

[Jarnhamar]

As a little expansion on the possessiveness post from the culture thread, I will add this. Very rarely do rascists, misogynists and bigots think they are any such thing, they usually have excuses and alleged logic to why they act that way. So I will keep an eye on this particular thing and try to be conscious of it, especially on here, but do know I accept the FACT that I have negative traits or characteristics. But I always strive to improve myself, so if I do have this failing, I will try to improve.

Glad to be of assistance
I'm generally intolerant of religion and other cultural practices I find barbaric or doesn't progress the human race. I may work on it one day, I have some pretty lofty plans for us as a species.

Anywho my wifes thoughts

Could be me being condemnatory or analytical but one of the last comments your wife gave me pause for thought.

and not worry about bothering the men.

Now jarnhammer you think that a higher percent of woman are opressed and I think a minute number are oppressed. But regardless if it is Muslim Men oppressing Muslim women or they are just percieved to be oppressed by the 'west' it could and does fuel Islamophobia, which fuels radical recruitment of disenfranchised Muslims.

I wonder about this statement (as I've seen it mentioned elsewhere). It almost feels like it's blaming radicalism primarily on the west. A Muslim feels like the west hates Islam so he goes out becomes radicalized and attacks the west. Couldn't it be said the foundation for that way of thinking is based in someones up bringing and religion first and foremost? Such as from the link of the school int he UK I posted with the teacher and kids? Kill someone for leaving Islam. Kill someone for being gay. Kill those who aren't Islam.

I actually think our First Nations youth suffer from this sort of poisoned up bringing too. Whites/settlers hate them, it's their fault they're living in poverty.

 

[AbdullahD]

I can not say it is primarily the 'wests' fault for radicalized idiots, because that removes the onus from the people doing the acts to much.

We can say the 'west' as it is called in some circles, has played a hand in the problems that exist in the world today. But that is the nature of the world, every action has a reaction. But that is no excuse to be a terrorist. Maybe it is the teachers of this day and age, including parents, who do not give kids the skills to separate people from the problem or the actions of a 'few' xyz skin color or religion from the majority. Which leads to these issues we have wether it is victim blaming, hating the west or any such silly rhetoric that leads to extremism of any kind.

It is also sad that legitimate criticism's that Muslim, Native or White etc people all have can not stay in context. A lot of us judge another group with zero idea about the truth of the reality of the situation... when if we could view the facts and truth of any issues that arise and separate our emotions.. we would all progress much better.

Also I will note, although I am sure you guys already know... any Muslim who is teaching that Islam calls for killing as the answer to xyz problems, really needs to be watched carefully and removed from that position of power over little children. I admit propagating these idiotic positions that are not supported is making the disconnect to extremism even smaller. So it is another piece of the puzzle.

Abdullah

Ps I used certain terms for ease of explanation, I very rarely think in such binary ways.

 

[George Wallace]

We can say the 'west' as it is called in some circles, has played a hand in the problems that exist in the world today. But that is the nature of the world, every action has a reaction.

Now we are getting into "Revisionist History".  Of course, for every action there is a reaction.  It, however, seems to be very convenient of the Islamic world to forget that it was Islamic invasions into Europe that created the friction in the first place.  Long before the Crusades, there was the invasion of Spain and France by the Moors.  Let's not forget the invasions into Eastern Europe as well, some of them the most bloody in history.  Legends were even created.  Vlad III, Prince of Wallachia, a member of the House of Drăculești, became one such legend. 

For a Timeline, look here.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Hard to stir shit up with your peeps by playing the poor downtrodden innocent victim when you're in fact the shit disturber to begin with.  It's just not convenient.

 

[AbdullahD]

Now we are getting into "Revisionist History".  Of course, for every action there is a reaction.  It, however, seems to be very convenient of the Islamic world to forget that it was Islamic invasions into Europe that created the friction in the first place.  Long before the Crusades, there was the invasion of Spain and France by the Moors.  Let's not forget the invasions into Eastern Europe as well, some of them the most bloody in history.  Legends were even created.  Vlad III, Prince of Wallachia, a member of the House of Drăculești, became one such legend. 

For a Timeline, look here.

George, I was specifically talking about the American interventionist policies of the last 100 years. Not ancient history, but something worth noting is the wars every other group were launching during the same time period.

I was alluding to things like the sykes picot deal, the overthrow of Iraq and Afghanistan etc. So that is what I will touch on.

How the war on terror made the world unsafe;
http://www.alternet.org/story/48620/the_war_on_terror_is_the_leading_cause_of_terrorism

The US/Western intervention;
https://theintercept.com/2014/11/06/many-countries-islamic-world-u-s-bombed-occupied-since-1980/

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/12/eye-opening-graphic-map-of-muslim-countries-that-the-u-s-and-israel-have-bombed/

Sykes picot agreement and its effects;
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/analysis/How-Sykes-Picot-Is-the-Root-of-Syria-Iraq-Sectarian-Conflicts-20160513-0028.html

Now revisionist history to me is a pejorative term, but if you feel I am distorting facts do call me on it. I have really only studied Islamic warfare from the time of the prophet up until the last of the four rightly guided caliphs, the issue of who started these ancient wars are not that big to me and if your sources say it was only group 'a' or group 'b's fault then I would definetly double check.

But the effect I was mentioning starts around WW1 not Crusade #1. If you feel that Muslims started these modern wars and thus brought the sykes picot deal upon themselves and you don't realize the betrayals that happened regarding it then we can discuss. The reason I note Muslims starting the modern wars is because you note Muslims started the problems, for me to go all the way back to the beginning is far out of my depth... sorry.

But here is a link to the very beginning... it is a youtube series by a speaker I respect.

Mufti Menk - Life of Prophet Muhammad PBUH: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEe4sh5Y1RVOHOZHpRY6uCKcTeoYF_Gge

But do not think I do not accept Muslims or people claiming to be Muslims have done extremely bad things, because I do. I just do not think we are special in that regard.

Abdullah

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=AbdullahD]
the American interventionist policies of the last 100 years.
[/quote]

If you ask me the US is guilty of causing a lot of this shit in the first place; fanning the flames of radicalism and strife abroad. War is a business and there's a lot of money and friends to be made supplying the US war machine.  Halliburton made what, 40 billion dollars from the gulf war? Both sides feed off each other.

 

[George Wallace]

George, I was specifically talking about the American interventionist policies of the last 100 years.

Now this is a generalization, and a case of demonizing the Americans, where other nations have also been involved; some of them Middle Eastern.

But the effect I was mentioning starts around WW1 not Crusade #1. If you feel that Muslims started these modern wars and thus brought the sykes picot deal upon themselves and you don't realize the betrayals that happened regarding it then we can discuss. The reason I note Muslims starting the modern wars is because you note Muslims started the problems, for me to go all the way back to the beginning is far out of my depth... sorry.

Agreed.  The Sykes Picot Agreement has played a major part in the situation today.  An act of reprisal against the Ottoman Empire after WW I by the French, British and Russians; not the Americans.  Perhaps, in their eyes, the normal way of dealing with a defeated foe by the victors in that day of age.  The last vestiges of Colonialism. 

We have seen the Arms industries in both the Western and Soviet spheres of influence driving political scenes around the world, not just the Middle East.  Not all those "deals" have involved Muslims.  All have contributed to the instability we have seen.

 

[Kirkhill]

George, I was specifically talking about the American interventionist policies of the last 100 years. Not ancient history, but something worth noting is the wars every other group were launching during the same time period.

I was alluding to things like the sykes picot deal, the overthrow of Iraq and Afghanistan etc. So that is what I will touch on.

How the war on terror made the world unsafe;
http://www.alternet.org/story/48620/the_war_on_terror_is_the_leading_cause_of_terrorism

The US/Western intervention;
https://theintercept.com/2014/11/06/many-countries-islamic-world-u-s-bombed-occupied-since-1980/

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/12/eye-opening-graphic-map-of-muslim-countries-that-the-u-s-and-israel-have-bombed/

Sykes picot agreement and its effects;
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/analysis/How-Sykes-Picot-Is-the-Root-of-Syria-Iraq-Sectarian-Conflicts-20160513-0028.html

Now revisionist history to me is a pejorative term, but if you feel I am distorting facts do call me on it. I have really only studied Islamic warfare from the time of the prophet up until the last of the four rightly guided caliphs, the issue of who started these ancient wars are not that big to me and if your sources say it was only group 'a' or group 'b's fault then I would definetly double check.

But the effect I was mentioning starts around WW1 not Crusade #1. If you feel that Muslims started these modern wars and thus brought the sykes picot deal upon themselves and you don't realize the betrayals that happened regarding it then we can discuss. The reason I note Muslims starting the modern wars is because you note Muslims started the problems, for me to go all the way back to the beginning is far out of my depth... sorry.

But here is a link to the very beginning... it is a youtube series by a speaker I respect.

Mufti Menk - Life of Prophet Muhammad PBUH: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEe4sh5Y1RVOHOZHpRY6uCKcTeoYF_Gge

But do not think I do not accept Muslims or people claiming to be Muslims have done extremely bad things, because I do. I just do not think we are special in that regard.

Abdullah

We are not that far apart except on this:  You cannot look at proximate causes (like Sikes-Picot) without looking at distal causes as well.  Our distal causes were proximate to the people making decisions like the Sikes-Picot agreement.

There is a reason why the US Marines sing "to the shores of Tripoli" and the Brits sing "Rule Britannia, Britannia rule the waves, Britons never shall be slaves".  It is the same reason that Spain occupies Ceuta and the French occupied Algeria (and got trapped in Africa).  In each instance it is necessary to consider the impact of the Barbary Coast.  In Eastern Europe the issue was the Janissaries.

In all cases people professing adherence to the prophet found it acceptable to treat all others as sub-human. 

I can accept that the prophet did not call for that, any more than Christ did or any others of the great religious leaders.  But certainly, the perception created in the minds of those that had contact with the rulers of Istanbul, Tripoli, Algiers, Tunis, Rabat and Sallee was not favourable to the prophet or his adherents.

There are reasons, there are justifications for everything.  It is important to acknowledge the past and understand it.  It is also important that the only thing we can control is today, and to a significantly lesser extent, tomorrow.

Cheers.

 

[jollyjacktar]

As the old saying goes "it's not God that I have a problem with, it's his fan clubs". 

 

[mariomike]

Remember "Clock Boy" from this time last year?

This is from last month,

‘Clock Boy’ Ahmed Mohamed Files Lawsuit Over Texas School Discrimination

Attorneys for Mohamed’s family sent a letter in February to the City of Irving and the Irving Independent School District, where they demanded $15 million in damages for how this entire situation was handled — both at the school and at the Irving Police Department headquarters.
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2016/08/08/irving-clock-kid-set-to-file-federal-lawsuit/

 

[AbdullahD]

We are not that far apart except on this:  You cannot look at proximate causes (like Sikes-Picot) without looking at distal causes as well.  Our distal causes were proximate to the people making decisions like the Sikes-Picot agreement.

There is a reason why the US Marines sing "to the shores of Tripoli" and the Brits sing "Rule Britannia, Britannia rule the waves, Britons never shall be slaves".  It is the same reason that Spain occupies Ceuta and the French occupied Algeria (and got trapped in Africa).  In each instance it is necessary to consider the impact of the Barbary Coast.  In Eastern Europe the issue was the Janissaries.

In all cases people professing adherence to the prophet found it acceptable to treat all others as sub-human. 

I can accept that the prophet did not call for that, any more than Christ did or any others of the great religious leaders.  But certainly, the perception created in the minds of those that had contact with the rulers of Istanbul, Tripoli, Algiers, Tunis, Rabat and Sallee was not favourable to the prophet or his adherents.

There are reasons, there are justifications for everything.  It is important to acknowledge the past and understand it.  It is also important that the only thing we can control is today, and to a significantly lesser extent, tomorrow.

Cheers.

Amen to that.

Perception is a very powerful tool, which ultimately dictates a lot in this world. I brought up these proximate causes, because I fancied them an important part and in my view that is all they are.

It is kind of like a checklist almost for me why these things are happening;
•The interventionist policies
•The Saudi funding of Salafism
•The lack of stability in the mid east
•some youth lacking a reason to live
•luke warm policies of the world that entice youth to extremism
•Islamophobia
•mental instability
•drug use current or prior
•family life
•etc etc etc

It is one of those things when I hear of terrorist attacks, I start seeing which things motivated the person if I am able to. Which to be honest is not very often. There are always underlying traits or symptoms of terrorists that seem to be fairly common, which seem to me to be able to be rectified and other symptoms or traits that are almost impossible to correct but are also common... like a fried brain from drugs or mental handicaps. When trying to be proactive to stop terrorist I'm a good little liberal, example being "if we just implement the right social programs, the problem will go away". But, after the fact... I tend to go straight right wing with the "hang them all" mentality. So maybe this influences my little checklist of "oh all these things created this monster and if we addressed these issues we would be fine"... but alas that is the thing with biases, you barely ever notice them when they are yours. (I still feel I am somewhat right though lol)

But it seems like we all agree that the issues I originally brought up do play a part how big of a part is not important to me as long as we agree they are a card that is in play. Now we just have to minimize the effect it has on potential extremists.

Muslims have largely been complacent in their beliefs for so long and did not bother to learn even the essentials, which makes it easier to corrupt the beliefs they hold and now we have major issues to deal with...I have spent a few hours trying to figure out how to say this better.. and this is all I got. A myriad of issues influences what happens in the world and trying to figure them all out is darn near impossible. The world is no longer simple, if it ever was. Islam's main goal is just to connect people with God and it is sad how perverted it is these days.

Abdullah

Ps their is nothing Islamic about "Islamic Terrorists"   :deadhorse: